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Thread: Generation Kill

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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Default Generation Kill

    I watched the first episode Sunday evening. I have not read the book. So far I have some positive reactions about the series curtailed by some serious negatives.

    Positives:

    The eternal resourceful American Marine or Soldier. The guys are out scrounging or simply buying what they need when the system is not working. Such has long been the story and is not likely to change.


    Negatives:

    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top.

    Officer leadership--shades of Band of Brothers--the company commander is a pretty boy idiot. the Lieutenant stands "tall" and lies to the battalion commander.

    More to follow. Got a meeting.

    Tom

    Thoughts, reactions?

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Thanks for the heads up! Watching the Generation Kill trailers on You-tube! Laughing my ass off. The dialogue is genius. Pity no one has ever this accurately portrayed British Soldiers on screen.

    Tom Odom wrote:
    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top
    ...and in the early 1980's most UK infantry units were overtly and extremely racist from the top down. I guess most armies are. One the human challenges we don't talk enough about.
    Last edited by William F. Owen; 07-15-2008 at 02:29 PM. Reason: can't quote
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member MattC86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    I watched the first episode Sunday evening. I have not read the book. So far I have some positive reactions about the series curtailed by some serious negatives.

    Positives:

    The eternal resourceful American Marine or Soldier. The guys are out scrounging or simply buying what they need when the system is not working. Such has long been the story and is not likely to change.


    Negatives:

    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top.

    Officer leadership--shades of Band of Brothers--the company commander is a pretty boy idiot. the Lieutenant stands "tall" and lies to the battalion commander.

    More to follow. Got a meeting.

    Tom

    Thoughts, reactions?
    Tom,

    I've got the exact opposite perspective; I read the book, but don't have HBO, so I'm reduced to inviting myself over to others' houses to see the miniseries. So far no takers. . .

    Anyway, I think your negatives can only be addressed by reading the book. Even in 7 hours, I don't think the series will be able to address the sources of it.

    In the book, I too found the view of Recon's leadership a little startling - Wright was riding with four enlisted guys and had far less contact with any officers; from platoon leader to company commander to a few of the battalion officers. Fick's book is instructive in this regard, because he too believed his company commander (derided in the book as "Captain America") was incompetent, as did apparently many of the men in the battalion. But Fick had more sympathy for First Recon's commander, Ferrando, than Wright's book (and certainly more than the enlisted guys had).

    As far as the racism, the book featured a Latino Marine who believed he was fighting for the evil white government, and yet good-naturedly traded "spic" and "nigger" epithets with other troops in the platoon. I have no experience with troops, obviously, but just in my generation as a whole, I've found so many guys perfectly comfortable trading those epithets in mixed-race social groups. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know, but I think it's a cultural shift.

    Still looking for someone who has DVRed this. . .

    Regards,

    Matt
    "Give a good leader very little and he will succeed. Give a mediocrity a great deal and he will fail." - General George C. Marshall

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    Tom,

    I've got the exact opposite perspective; I read the book, but don't have HBO, so I'm reduced to inviting myself over to others' houses to see the miniseries. So far no takers. . .

    Anyway, I think your negatives can only be addressed by reading the book. Even in 7 hours, I don't think the series will be able to address the sources of it.

    In the book, I too found the view of Recon's leadership a little startling - Wright was riding with four enlisted guys and had far less contact with any officers; from platoon leader to company commander to a few of the battalion officers. Fick's book is instructive in this regard, because he too believed his company commander (derided in the book as "Captain America") was incompetent, as did apparently many of the men in the battalion. But Fick had more sympathy for First Recon's commander, Ferrando, than Wright's book (and certainly more than the enlisted guys had).
    For what it's worth, I found Fick's book much better than Wright's, I didn't even finish the latter because I thought the writing was so bad, only other book I can ever remember doing that with was DaVinci Code. I'd say if you want to read one after watching the series go with Fick's.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    As far as the racism, the book featured a Latino Marine who believed he was fighting for the evil white government, and yet good-naturedly traded "spic" and "nigger" epithets with other troops in the platoon. I have no experience with troops, obviously, but just in my generation as a whole, I've found so many guys perfectly comfortable trading those epithets in mixed-race social groups. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know, but I think it's a cultural shift.
    Second that, with my friends the N-word is usually out of bounds (more in the U.S. than Britain), but everything short of that is fair game, and very rarely results in offense. I tend to think that's a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86 View Post
    Still looking for someone who has DVRed this. . .

    Regards,

    Matt
    Matt go to www.surfthechannel.com, they've got the first episode up. I'm currently torn on whether to start watching it online now or wait til I get home in two months and see them all then.

    My pacifist lefty German mother started watching the series though, I'd have to think if you can get someone like that to watch a relatively sympathetic portrayal of the military, it makes up for some of the negligence of the media in covering the wars now (way more Britney on the news than Afghanistan, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Odom View Post
    Negatives:

    Overt racism among the ranks. Maybe I am too old a Soldier but the overt racism--as tolerated and participated in by NCOs--was over the top.

    Officer leadership--shades of Band of Brothers--the company commander is a pretty boy idiot. the Lieutenant stands "tall" and lies to the battalion commander.

    Sir, I enjoyed the first episode for its relatively faithful portrayal of a platoon of infantry Marines. The overt rascist jibes happen about like they're portrayed, although I think they tend to defuse any racial tension, unlike what was shown in the episode.

    During the initial training range sequence, the radio traffic between the FAC and aircraft was pretty damn realistic. The terminology all seems to be spot on as well.

    The company commander, "Encino Man", is portrayed as an idiot because that seems to have been the general perception. (I think I ran into "Capt America" in Nasiriyah when 1st Recon passed through our battalion's lines. I remember walking the guy around my lines and thinking to myself, "This guy's a moron.") The actor playing LtCol Ferrando certainly talked like an infantry battalion commander.

    One thing that bugged me is the Lt Fick character repeatedly calling his TL, Sgt Colbert, by his first name.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default None of my business, but I'm idly curious...

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
    ...One thing that bugged me is the Lt Fick character repeatedly calling his TL, Sgt Colbert, by his first name.
    Why is that?

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    Default vmi_marine is right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Why is that?
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

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    Default my two cents

    In 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999% of Marine infantry units you would never see this. The only time this might be different is if an officer was talking to a wounded Marine or to a family member about their husband or son, etc.

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    I went to the HBO website and watched all the trailers/interviews. Looks authentic to me. Laughed my a** off actually at some of the dark humor that soldiers are famous for.

    Got to get HBO ...
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cavguy View Post
    I went to the HBO website and watched all the trailers/interviews. Looks authentic to me. Laughed my a** off actually at some of the dark humor that soldiers are famous for.

    Got to get HBO ...
    I really laughed at, "Quiet down. I can't hear the artillery..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite_State
    For what it's worth, I found Fick's book much better than Wright's, I didn't even finish the latter because I thought the writing was so bad, only other book I can ever remember doing that with was DaVinci Code. I'd say if you want to read one after watching the series go with Fick's.
    I agree that One Bullet Away is the better book, they do however compliment each other well. Generation Kill covering the nitty-gritty grunts eye perspective, and One Bullet Away on a another level.
    Heh, I've heard Salman Rushdie in a speech once say something along the lines of: "You know normally I am against assassinating writers because of their novels, but after reading the DaVinci Code...."

    Quote Originally Posted by VMI_Marine
    During the initial training range sequence, the radio traffic between the FAC and aircraft was pretty damn realistic. The terminology all seems to be spot on as well.
    My understanding is that they tried to incorporate as much of the battalions recorded radio traffic as possible into the series. Also several members of the platoon served as technical advisers in the making of it, and did their best to make sure the terminology was nailed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattC86
    As far as the racism, the book featured a Latino Marine who believed he was fighting for the evil white government, and yet good-naturedly traded "spic" and "nigger" epithets with other troops in the platoon.
    This is the guy who was a repo man in south central LA right? And he kept getting shot at in his job repossessing cars that he figured he might as well join the Corps. Isn't he also part Native American? I know one of the guys is, they have one of the more memorable quotes in the book about the shame of watching Pocahontas with his daughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granite_State
    My pacifist lefty German mother started watching the series though, I'd have to think if you can get someone like that to watch a relatively sympathetic portrayal of the military, it makes up for some of the negligence of the media in covering the wars now (way more Britney on the news than Afghanistan, etc.).
    I was in the book store yesterday, the book has been re-released with a new afterward, I read it. Wright says that when the book first came out, there was a quote in it from a Marine, that said combat was like playing Grand Theft Auto. This particular quote was cited often as an example of how today's youth cannot distinguish between reality and video games.
    In the time since the book was published, Wright realized that this was more indicative of the nationsinability to distinguish between the realities of war, and the fantasies of media and video games. Rather than this particular Marines inability to do so. I thought this was particularly sharp.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Well, you agree with the book...

    Quote Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    Having spent a great deal of time in line units and having been called by rank as well as by first, last and unprintable names by Officers ranging from 2LT to BG I'd be inclined to say it depends on the unit and the people -- as well as the circumstances; level or intensity of combat can make a difference. I do not see it as 'unprofessional' (whatever that means) at all. You have to know your people and I can truthfully say that neither any Officer that called me by my first name nor I ever forgot who I was or who they were.

    I suspect part of it is a self confidence thing. I think it interesting that you posit it may be acceptable in SF or Force Recon but not in line units. Seems to me it either would be okay or it wouldn't. Fire a few inert rounds and give a good line unit the extra training SF or Recon get and you'd get similar performance capability..

    For Maximus I agree that in most Marine units it would be far less likely to happen than it would be in the Army -- for several reasons -- but I can truthfully say that back in my misspent youth as an 1811 in Korea my Platoon commander called me by my first name most of the time. That was the only place in the Corps that happened but it was handy, that way I always knew when I'd fouled up.

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    Default there certainly is a double standard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Having spent a great deal of time in line units and having been called by rank as well as by first, last and unprintable names by Officers ranging from 2LT to BG I'd be inclined to say it depends on the unit and the people -- as well as the circumstances; level or intensity of combat can make a difference. I do not see it as 'unprofessional' (whatever that means) at all. You have to know your people and I can truthfully say that neither any Officer that called me by my first name nor I ever forgot who I was or who they were.
    Since being commissioned, I have always been called by my first name by officers senior to me. At least alone or amongst other officers, anyway; rarely in front of troops. As an enlisted Soldier, I was never called by my first name by anyone, from TL up to CO (although I was called many other things). I suppose it is a double standard, because I have NEVER referred to an NCO or a Soldier by their first name. Not one time, ever; because I was taught that it wasn't professional. Maybe I'm wrong. Additionally, I didn't say that is was correct that SF types call each other by their first name, I just heard from friends in that community that it was common and accepted.
    Last edited by Steve Blair; 07-16-2008 at 08:06 PM. Reason: fixed quote
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Having spent a great deal of time in line units and having been called by rank as well as by first, last and unprintable names by Officers ranging from 2LT to BG I'd be inclined to say it depends on the unit and the people -- as well as the circumstances; level or intensity of combat can make a difference. I do not see it as 'unprofessional' (whatever that means) at all. You have to know your people and I can truthfully say that neither any Officer that called me by my first name nor I ever forgot who I was or who they were.

    I suspect part of it is a self confidence thing. I think it interesting that you posit it may be acceptable in SF or Force Recon but not in line units. Seems to me it either would be okay or it wouldn't. Fire a few inert rounds and give a good line unit the extra training SF or Recon get and you'd get similar performance capability..
    Some find it acceptable to call SNCOs or senior sergeants by first name. I'd be ok doing it outside of a "work" environment. My closest friend from my lieutenant time is my old platoon sergeant - I just spent a week at his house in the Netherlands back in May. Certainly a lot of older officers (captain and above) are on first-name basis with their senior enlisted advisors during off-duty hours. Nothing wrong with that either. They don't do it in front of the junior Marines, though.

    I'm not saying it was unrealistic; I'm sure it does happen in Recon, and Nate Fick may have been on a first name basis with Sgt Colbert, but it seemed out of place to me. The fact that I noticed it at all, however, goes to show how accurate the rest of it is.

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    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Call it unprofessional if you will...

    In nineteen months of command (12 in combat), I raised my voice only thrice.

    I called my SSG's and above by their first names.

    If they were called by their rank/last name, then they knew they were in trouble.

    It builds a cohesive team specifically in the most tenacious times of trench/room clearing.

    To me, this issue is as irrelevant and silly as the grooming standards commissioned by the Marine Battalion and expressed today by the PT reflective belts at LSAA.

    Professionalism lies in the cleanliness of the weapons, the readiness of the equipment, and the response time to an action.

    Brotherhood lies in the bonds shared throughout the tense times.

    From my subordinates, I was always referred to as sir.

    I am regular army. Only short bus special.

    For me, I smiled throughout Generation Kill as I relived my time as a platoon leader on their western flank in 3rd ID.
    Last edited by MikeF; 07-16-2008 at 10:20 PM.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I don't think it's unprofessional, though I'll have

    to admit that in 27 years in a war suit and 18 as a DAC, the only time I ever got told I was 'unprofessional' was when a Hindquarters Co 1SG accused me of being that because I refused to have the troops wax and buff the floor in the Brigade 3 shop every single night. I was hard put to figure the 'unprofessional' part of that and I'm still confused on the issue, obviously. On the floor, didn't lose a lot of sleep over it -- nor did I change the cleaning SOP..

    Long way of pointing out that different approaches are not all bad. For another example, that same book says we should "praise in public and condemn in private." That is generally true but some people get really upset when you praise them publicly and for others, the worst thing you can do to them, worse than any chewing, extra duty or a fine, is to embarrass them in public. Still another is the well known 'on the spot correction.' Sometimes necessary -- rarely -- but mostly, such corrections should be avoided because they subvert the chain of command. Heebly's bad performance won't improve unless his Squad Leader knows about it (and if the Squad Leader is the problem, the Platoon sergeant knows and so on, thus best to note the transgression and cue the appropriate echelons above old Heebly, METT-TC permitting)...

    That said, no intent to denigrate anyone or any practice, just trying to point out that people and standards can differ -- and if they work for the time and place, none is necessarily wrong; they're just different. That and mention that even good books are just a guide; they are not the gospel. It really all boils down to knowing your people and what works for you...

    After my mindless digression, we now return to our scheduled program; "Generation Kill"

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    Default Terms of Address

    I think part of the issue has to do with what one views in others as worthy of offering respect.

    As a young LT I addressed my NCOs by rank and last name, in deferrence to their age and experience--each of them was older and wiser than I. I spoke to most of my (E-4s only had SP4s, no corporals) and below by their first names. Similarly to MikeF, when I addressed them by rank and last name, they knew they were in trouble. As I rose in rank and experience, I was more likely to address my junior NCOs by first name, unless they were in the comnpany of their subordinates. I never came to a point whre I could address an E9 as anything other than Sergeant Major X. Perhaps the weirdest event was coming to a position as a senior Major where I supervised my former PSG, now a GS-11. Calling him by his first name was always tough for me and calling him PSG L was inappropriate. Funny thing was that I had no problem addressing by first name a former section sergeant (also an E7 during my Plt Ldr days) who was also now a GS-11. It was also tough to address my former college professors as anything other than Professor X even though I was also a professor at the time.

    BTW, I haver addressed anyone of any rank simply by his/her rank, except to be insulting. That practice is the epitome of depersonalization as far as I am concerned. It is probably more demeaning than referring to people just by last name.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkm_101_fso View Post
    Because it just doesn't happen, or it's not supposed to. PLs don't refer to their NCOs by first name. I think it's pretty unheard of...and unprofessional. Just my 2 cents. Maybe in SF units or Force Recon, it's acceptable, I wouldn't know, but for a line Infantry company, no.
    I thought they were recon? Being used in an inappropriate role. The watch cap debacle I thought was hillarious. Kind of like Tanker Boots after I finished armor school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    I called my SSG's and above by their first names.

    Brotherhood lies in the bonds shared throughout the tense times.

    From my subordinates, I was always referred to as sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by wm View Post
    I think part of the issue has to do with what one views in others as worthy of offering respect.

    As a young LT I addressed my NCOs by rank and last name, in deference to their age and experience--each of them was older and wiser than I. ... I never came to a point where I could address an E9 as anything other than Sergeant Major X.
    I fully concur with Mike and Wayne; I see no issues/instances of lack of professionalism. In my 23 years (other than my E-1 thru E-4 days), most of my SNCOs and nearly every officer addressed me by my first name. Typically, the senior officers were far easier and the E-9s... Well, what Wayne said
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    In 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999% of Marine infantry units you would never see this. The only time this might be different is if an officer was talking to a wounded Marine or to a family member about their husband or son, etc.
    It really is funny how cultural all of this is. I can remember being absolutely stunned and horrified attending a re-enlistment ceremony in Iraq for a female USMC CPL COMCAM operator who worked for us. She was a switched soldier who had just come out of a job in Anbar where she had to drop her camera, shoulder her rifle and slot a couple of bad guys ... she was so gee'd up about it she asked to re-up on the spot. Anyway there was a USMC 1-star and a female O6 who ran the ceremony with all of us looking on. Both principals spoke about the CPL's career at length (about 20 mins in total I guess) during the ceremony ... quite a moving thing in a combat area as it is not something I had experienced before (we don't have re-enlistment ceremonies ...we just sign up for a minimum period and then get out when we've had enough) but apart from the final pronouncement of the Corps owning her for the next few years, neither speaker ever referred to her as a person. The speeches were littered with "this marine" or "this CPL" (about 15 'marines' to the 'CPL') and all I could think of was how bloody impersonal it all was. I mean here was this young kid who just offered to keep putting her life on the line (in an adrenaline-fuelled haze that I hope she doesn't regret now) and they couldn't even be bothered to call her 'Michelle' (not her real name) or even 'CPL XXXX.' What made it really weird for me was when I commented on it to one of the guys I was working closely with, a USMC CAPT, and he looked at me like I was stupid ... apparently it was the highest honour to be completely de-personified and to become one with 'Marine' ... it was like I was dealing with the F#@&ing Borg!

    I used to always get in the #### from the couple of E6s, 7s and the 8 who worked with us as well. As the sole Aussie I made a point getting to know everyone in the small team pretty closely and I'd always call these lads by their first name. Here, like others have indicated, rank and last name is reserved for discipline or in the presence of seniors outside your normal C2 structure. Top used to drag me aside and tell me how I was disrespecting the rank the lads had earned by not using it. I pleaded “diplomatic immunity” and told them straight up that it wasn’t the way we played it in our Army and that I felt knowing them as people was just as important as knowing they could do the job their rank entailed ... in the end it worked out but I know one of them was never really happy ... I was just that "crazy Aussie officer who didn't know #### about the big army." I might also of got that name by being the crazy white guy who didn’t know better and stayed around playing dominos with them all after work.

    Here, with seniors in my own C2 chain (apart from my 2-star) pretty much all of them are 'Boss' if no-one else is around. Might be a hang over from my days as a soldier and Section Comd where if I had a good Pl Comd he was 'Boss' and if he was a clown he was always 'Sir.' A 'Boss' here is someone you want to work with. A 'Sir' is often someone you have to work with.

    But then again according to most of you I'm upside down

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