I'll check them out JMM.Originally Posted by jmm99
I suppose actually reading Jones' book will help answer alot of the questions as well. I'll see if I can steal a copy somewhere.
A few weeks ago I got done reading Charlie Wilson's War and that had a section devoted to the CIA and alot of the negative things that happened to it back then, for example: original cutbacks under Carter, the Welch killing, and other exposures.
And, it goes back even further ..
as Ken White succinctly pointed out on page 1 of this thread:
IMO: the agency had a consensual adult relationship with the Oval Office during Eisenhower (Dulles bros) and Reagan (Casey), but at other times was either a presidential plaything or ignored. So, there have been lots of things to bitch about - and, thus, the Jones book and many others.The real problems with national level Humint did not arise until Nixon had Schlesinger start the dismantling of the DO in 1973, the Rockefeller Commission and the Church Committee did their thing and James Earl Carter and Stansfield Turner completed the massacre. The Agency has never fully recovered.
The Nixon-Schlesinger thing was particularly disruptive to the then-called Directorate of Plans, which became the Directorate of Operations - less about a 1000 officers. You will find differences of opinion as to whether that shift in emphasis was good or bad - and in terms of whether some deadwood should have been removed.
I suppose that names do not necessarily mean anything; but the picture after that seemed to reflect a shift from HUMINT to more of a paramilitary concept. The latter was necessary to the effort in Afghanistan ("Mr. Wilson's War"); but query, to what extent paramilitary efforts should be a function of the DO.
Anyway, a read of Jones' book would be worthwhile - and a compare to those written by Bob Baer. Guess I'll order it from Amazon. Three reviews of the book by retired folks at the end of the Amazon page, which is here:
http://www.amazon.com/Human-Factor-D...1875405&sr=8-1
The first one calls for the final completion of the Nixon-Schlesinger massacre, which seems rather drastic IMO.
IJ's The Human Factor - Book Report
This is not quite the book I expected. I did not expect a Phillip Agee exposé; nor a legal brief; nor a dry treatise written by an analyst. I guess I expected a Bob Baer-type book, with more explicit assertion of policy (national strategy) considerations mixed in with the war stories.
The policy arguments are expressed in the Appendix (pp.355-361) in summary form; and some have been discussed here. They are here.
Keeping those points in mind as you read the book, you will see where he develops the evidence - but not point by point. It's not a legal brief, but a special kind of autobiography.
You can also glean some of the author's background, military career and CIA postings (all but OIF very generalized) from the book. IJ is very protective of his true name identity for good reasons (emphasized at various points in the book).
------------------------------------------
Author's Note (p. vii)
"Ishmael" supposedly was the nickname with which he was tagged during training. Taking him at his word above, his true nickname could be "Clint". Similarly, with all of the tags for sources and colleagues, the outsider would be hard-pressed to draw any firm conclusions. Was "Suspenders" really a wearer of suspenders, or was he really "Elephant Hide Belt" ? Was Jonah a red-haried male ? Dates and places should be treated in the same way - a café overlooking the Danube, or was it really the Vistula ? In short, this book may be inhabited by any number of legends - or maybe, only some of them are legends."All individuals, unless they are public figures, are obscured in order to make it impossible to identify any CIA employee or agent. Dates and places of non-public events have been obscured or changed. No classified information, sources, or methods are revealed."
Here are some colleagues:
and agents: The Twins (access agents), Dr. B (rogue state scientist).Loman (later, William Loman - i.e., "Willie Loman"), Roger, Max, Harry, Jonah, Moe, Godfather, Two Dog Dave, Worst Spy in the World, Andy, Sylvia, Charleton, Martin, Horace, Randy, Stefan, Bettie, Valerie;
That's through chap. 7. Now, I suppose it would be possible for an outsider to come up with something of a bio for many of these; but would it be a true bio or a legend ? Of course, to an insider of IJ's vintage, these characters (as described) might match real people.
The following did jump out at me and will to everyone else (p.137) [the context is 1996-1997, following the Ames-Nicholson flap]:
And indeed (pp.253-255 & fns 43-46), IJ briefly addresses the Plame case from open-sources."A pretty blond woman named Valerie came into the office and sat down at our table. She said she had received a message to return to HQs and wondered what it was all about. Moments later, a group of managers beckoned her to join them in the conference room. "She's about to be purged," said the older man. Twenty minutes later, the woman returned, weeping softly."
Disclosure is even less as to "information" derived by IJ from agents, who generally are unnamed and unlocated (the geography provided may be as legendary as some of the people).
Where the book may hit the reefs is not on its limited disclosure of "sources" and "information", but on disclosure of methods. The book is about 99% "methods" - broadly construed. In short, it's a "how to do" and "how not to do" book.
----------------------------------
Except for the open-source vignettes (supported by 66 footnotes) and a number of geographical and historical vignettes, the vast bulk of the book is devoted to how IJ recruited agents and obtained information; and how the CIA managers wanted him to recruit agents and obtain information. You also will get a lot on CIA personnel, approval, reporting and accounting policies, management levels, etc. - generalized at times, specific at other times.
What is classified or not is not my call.
How to set up the Ismael Jones Intel Service (as I glean it - so, in my words, not IJ's):
There is a lot more - about which, opinions will differ. All in all, an interesting book - not sorry I bought the book - which I two-ferred with Bob Baer's new book on Iran. Since the book is now #20,921 in Books, neither the CIA nor the author is about to get rich.1. Get your domestic house and personal finances in absolute order.
2. Have 300-500K of your own money available to finance your operations.
3. Keep accurate financial records for reimbursement - eventually.
4. Build up a target list from all sources.
5. Seek approval of contacts by presenting risk-averse scenarios (even if not the expected reality); or present the contact as a "walk-in" (even if you contacted him first).
6. Contact directly in the normal course of business - make the cold call.
7. Fudge reports (as to contact details, not the information) to fit the picture wanted by agency management for "how to do".
Last edited by jmm99; 10-04-2008 at 11:55 PM.
Btw, "Suspenders" is currently going through the confirmation process to be the new DCI.
Last edited by davidbfpo; 02-15-2013 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Add origin of JMM post in brackets
“[S]omething in his tone now reminded her of his explanations of asymmetric warfare, a topic in which he had a keen and abiding interest. She remembered him telling her how terrorism was almost exclusively about branding, but only slightly less so about the psychology of lotteries…” - Zero History, William Gibson
www.oss.net/PIG
thanks for keeping this thread alive, sir...
the first review (the most outstanding) when you follow that amazon link is by a fella named robert steele (i guess he's a former Marine/former case officer, same as jones). along with his name is a link to his site (www.oss.net/PIG , this wasn't here before). he has a pdf book available FREE for the november election festivities.
on the right hand side of the site are his 2 other books advertised with free chapters available for download (chapter 13 of 'on intelligence' and chapter 15 of 'the new craft of intelligence'). from a layman's perspective, both chapters were pretty good reads. both steele and jones definitely share the same passion for reform of this community.
just wondering what everyone's take of these 2 chapters would be (and also the pdf PIG book since intel is also addressed, partly)
حافظ الأسدلا أريد لأحد أن يسكت عن الخطأ أو أن يتستر عن العيوب والنواقص
What a contrast?
The works of Robert Steele on the value of open source information are well known; I've read one of his books in total and he is a zealot for his cause. The latest offer is no different, although timely for the US election. I say contrast as the thread started with a SF author revealing information to the public and so into the open.
Yes, open source information can help and can play a greater role in most spheres of intelligence - for the context (situational awareness) and details (of individual targets). I thought Steele went overboard in his advocacy.
davidbfpo
Contrast - yup
Don't know either of these guys (obviously in IJ's case - suppose he could be my neighbor - been wondering about him).
Anyway, based on their writings - about the only commonality seems to be as former Marines and employment by the same agency. IJ is committed to HUMINT ("secret" kind), but wants it done better, etc., etc.
Mr. Steele seems committed to many things - put it that way - and no further comment by me on Mr. Steele.
Robert D. Steele, "the problem with spies is they only know secrets"
jmm99, you're right this guy's absolutely all over the place! i'm becoming a fan of this guy's works, intel and strategy.
"it would cost CIA too much to try and shut me down..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6dW4U1xVr0
حافظ الأسدلا أريد لأحد أن يسكت عن الخطأ أو أن يتستر عن العيوب والنواقص
Not that well acquainted ...
with Mr. Steele's many works. So, it may be a case of some gold among the mud; or some mud among the gold (to paraphrase St. Jerome).
Use of open-source data has been promoted by many analysts in the agency, long before Mr. Steele reared his head. The shaggy dog story that goes along with that is that consumers have tended to want some "secret stuff" - otherwise, the analytics couldn't really be "intelligence".
Example of how to do it (not a CIA story). Three highly intelligent guys (had to be since I was one of them) are loaded for bear to brief Boss on a matter. Boss walks in (not having that much background on the matter), sits down, and says: "Mr. McCarthy, do me a favor and get the Brittanica volume that discusses X." OK, get volume. Boss reads; then get volume Y; then Z, etc. Boss ends up with a stack of references which he reads (quick reader was he), while everyone is chomping at the bit. Boss then says: "Now, we can tackle the real issues, since I'll understand what you're telling me."
The points are that (1) there is a lot of open-source out there; and (2) the consumer has to be amenable to recognition of its value (like Boss).
JMM,
I talked to a guy I know, a former operations officer who worked in the noc program. I asked him if IJ was legit, he said he thought so. That is probably the closest thing to a firm answer I am likely to get from him. So I will eat some crow here, and say my skepticism was misplaced.
He agreed with IJ's criticism of the "Platforms" concept. Credited the creation to "just do something" pressure from Congress, whereby poor ideas are executed in the short-term over good ideas that have long-term implantation.
JR,
The same guy worked with Steele years ago, his take on him is similar to what has been posted on this thread, though he agrees with alot of and see's alot of value in Steele's ideas and advocacy.
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