Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
Maybe in some cases you don't really need to train an army because a militia is all that you need?
Of course -- however, real and perceived need can differ. Most Nations tend to want an Army. In every nation discussed in this thread, the real and perceived need coincided.
The Afghan government can be considered as one of several powers/civil war parties in the country. Why does it need a real army if terrain has been controlled effectively by more militia-like forces in AFG in the past?
You'd have to ask the Afghans themselves, not me. I rather suspect their answer would have something to do with British incursions (they have long memories) where the tribes were effective, the invasion by the USSR where they were also effective but took to long and too much damage was incurred and their concern for both Russian and Pakistani intentions added to the capability of modern weapons...
Why does nation-building need to build a Western-like nation, why not just build a region-typical nation that works?
I suspect the answer to that question is that everyone is not a Fuchs and they may have ideas that differ from yours. Fair rhetorical question but there is no answer.
A perfect solution can prevent a timely good solution sometimes.
Frequently. Yet another human foible.
I'm actually surprised that you think that a military culture can be changed in 15 years...
I don't. You did but now apparently don't. Here's what I said up thread:

""An army formed from virtually nothing (Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq) is not going to be effective for at least a decade. Your time frame for the training of riflemen and junior leaders is correct for western nations -- those times need to be doubled for non-westerners for a variety of reasons; to train the all important logisticians and senior leaders takes at least a decade and usually longer. That, BTW, is with a war -- in peacetime it typically takes 20 to 30 years.""

You then disagreed saying:
... A quarter century after the training started. Not impressive
Yet today you say:
At least in the case of present old officer/NCO corps I'd expect a generation (30 years).
You are priceless. As Schmedlap pointed out, you have a tendency to make an argument; have it countered and then you return and try to turn that counter argument back on the person who made the point in the first place. You really ought to look at that. Anyhow, on this topic, you need to make up your mind; is 25 years bad or is it possible, even necessary to do it in less time; you also earlier said:
The U.S. forces have failed to train foreign armies properly in time spans that were longer than the American Civil War or the First World War. That's outright failure. Such training missions should be expected to train foreign troops in a year up to junior NCO and in two years up to medium-rank officers. That's the speed of training demonstrated by national armies after mobilization.
And this:
Ten years might be OK in peacetime, but it's not OK in wartime.
If you can show me how wartime will significantly change a culture, we can agree -- until then, it looks like you're trying to have it both ways and are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

You go on today to say:
But breaking old patterns and re-building to a new products isn't necessarily what I understand as advisable form of army buildup in times of war. There's probably no time for that, as the war might be lost before the training is done.
That is true, no question -- so one does what one has to as one understands the need at the time (and the real need may nor be clear until the benefit of hindsight is attained). You also said earlier:
A track record of inability to train a new foreign army to region-typical combat effectiveness in less than four years needs to have an impact on nation-building related foreign policy planning.
I disagree that it's a track record thing; it is -- as you now seem to acknowledge -- a systemic and cultural problem.

However, I do agree that, knowing that, different policy options should be explored. That, however, is a quite different topic and thread.

Lastly:
Who cares whether a unit discusses something irrelevant for three hours if its opponents aren't better?
Probably no one; then again, if they are even a little better, that's a different thing, isn't it...