Perceptions of Regional Anti-Semitism

[UrsaMaior]

Edited by administrator -- This thread created by board moderators to contain posts from a sidebar discussion within the Iran Nuke thread. The first post squarely on that topic happens to be this one, from UrsaMaior.
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Just for the record Mr. Owen you are probably aware of the fact that there were no antisemitic attacks in Iran since 1869 or so, despite the ramblings of some polticians here and there (which we all know how much they worth).

As of Turkey I wonder if Israel would leave the coming islamist takeover in Turkey without comment.

As of deterrence I share the views of those who say the only reason the public oppinion supports nukes that they hindered major military operations ever since they exist. (also see ALL participants' reluctance to use chemical weapons in WWII). I have serious doubts that any politician can be more desperate/crazed than Hitler in his Fuhrerbunker.

On the last note the mixed but rather positive view of the state of Israel will be seriously damaged if an attack on Iran (based on not so concrete presupmtions see 2003 attack on Iraq) would cause oil prices skyrocket.

[William F. Owen]

Just for the record Mr. Owen you are probably aware of the fact that there were no antisemitic attacks in Iran since 1869 or so, despite the ramblings of some polticians here and there (which we all know how much they worth).

I am pretty up to speed on the history of the Persian Jews. The substantial Iranian population I referred to was the one living in Israel. Beyond that I'm not sure what the significance of that fact is.

As of Turkey I wonder if Israel would leave the coming islamist takeover in Turkey without comment.

I can't see why Israel would worry about an Islamist Government in Turkey.

[UrsaMaior]

Sorry I misunderstood you about the persians.

As of islamists in Turkey, I concieve it as a threat since it is more likely to align with the jihadist ideology.

[William F. Owen]

Sorry I misunderstood you about the persians.

As of islamists in Turkey, I concieve it as a threat since it is more likely to align with the jihadist ideology.

No need to apologise. I should have been clearer!

I've had some long talks with the Turkish military on this, and they don't see a problem with "jihadists." They see a problem people who would hold Turkey back, socially. They point to Saudis and Gulf Arabs, as the example. The problem is, once the religious folks get a hold, the extremists are not far behind.

Muslims, unlike Christians, are not "naturally" anti-semitic. Modern Muslim anti-semitism has its roots in political doctrines aligned with National Socialism, and the attendant racial arguments are then used to support it.

Modern Muslim anti-semitism is a pure outgrowth of ancient Christian anti-semitism, using the same basic sets of arguments/beliefs, and found in modern Christian and secular anti-semitism.

Because Turkey was never occupied by a Christian power, and has modern secular tradition, I guess the same ideas never really took hold.

[UrsaMaior]

With all respect sir I have to refuse your "natural anti-semitism of christians" remark. Being a thinking, critical person AND a roman catholic I can see no "organic anti-jewish" behaviour coded in either the New Testament or the other sources of the church. But this is seriously out-of topic here. If you wish we can discuss it in private or in a seprate topic.

As of muslim antisemitism, ANY follower of islam should obey to the category ahl al-kitab. Modern muslim antisemitism, just like modern anti-imperialism is based on real policies than on some hokey religious reasoning to quote Han Solo.

I have yet to see any contended population which was divided along religious or ethnic lines (see Switzerland or Scandinavia).

[William F. Owen]

With all respect sir I have to refuse your "natural anti-semitism of christians" remark. Being a thinking, critical person AND a roman catholic I can see no "organic anti-jewish" behaviour coded in either the New Testament or the other sources of the church. But this is seriously out-of topic here. If you wish we can discuss it in private or in a seprate topic.

And with equal respect, while there may be no "organic anti-semitism", in the books selectively cited as a new testament, Christian behaviour on this a matter of historical record.

I may be wrong but I think it took about 1,000 years for a Pope to actually absolve the Jewish people of any wrongdoing in the death of Jesus. - which was apparently all part of G*d's plan. If only he'd told us!

Over the last 2,000 years Jews living under Muslim control were generally far safer than those living under Christian. I think the ultimate realisation of that fact can go without saying.

[bourbon]

Muslims, unlike Christians, are not "naturally" anti-semitic. Modern Muslim anti-semitism has its roots in political doctrines aligned with National Socialism, and the attendant racial arguments are then used to support it.

Would understanding the thinking in the above quote shed light on what would appear to be a preference of Israel and her supporters in the US, for Islamists of varying militancy over secular nationalist governments?

This is if someone were sincerely perplexed by this perceived preference and pattern, and struggled to understand why.

Over the last 2,000 years Jews living under Muslim control were generally far safer than those living under Christian. I think the ultimate realisation of that fact can go without saying.

How much of this was under Persian rule?

Didn't Cyrus the Great free the Jews from Babylonian Captivity, and helped to rebuild the Temple? History shows that Iran and Israel are natural ally, geography further shapes both nations strategic thinking, how much is this going to drive Iran's actions? Ideology will only take a regime so far, Ahmadinejad of course has kooky ideas, but will they trump conflicting historical and geographical realities?

Again, just what exactly is the Farsi idiom for to "wipe [something] off the face of the map"? Does such an expression really exists in Persian culture?

This is what confuses the heck out of me, I perceive a gap between rhetoric of the Iran threat and a historical and strategic reality that contradicts it. Any of this hold water?

[reed11b]

Outside from Iran, the law in the so-called moderate Kuwaite and SA are still extreme regarding Judaism. While in Kuwaite I saw a newspaper headline of a Bedouin who was converting to judaism in protest. The paper stated that the penalty for being jewish was death. Any country where being British can be legaly punished by death? Israel has very legitimate reasons for there choice of policy.
Reed

[William F. Owen]

Would understanding the thinking in the above quote shed light on what would appear to be a preference of Israel and her supporters in the US, for Islamists of varying militancy over secular nationalist governments?

This is if someone were sincerely perplexed by this perceived preference and pattern, and struggled to understand why.

The US does have a preference for Israel, in the same way the US has had a preference for the UK over other European nations. Understanding why this is the case is a useful exercise.

How much of this was under Persian rule?

Didn't Cyrus the Great free the Jews from Babylonian Captivity, and helped to rebuild the Temple? History shows that Iran and Israel are natural ally, geography further shapes both nations strategic thinking, how much is this going to drive Iran's actions?

All true. (not sure about the help with the 2nd temple- let me check! I just don't want the thing rebuilt any time soon!) Huge and very wealthy Jewish community in Persia, who have historically been safe, but I fear there are things afoot that trump that historical paradigm.