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Thread: Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

  1. #1301
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Stan---Interfax runs in a rolling principle as the releases go out so there is no specific link outside of a general one---will go back and dig out the open source briefing from breedlove.

    http://www.interfax.com/news.asp
    If you read it, copy it, and paste it. I have not the slightest idea of what a rolling principle means and how that prevents you from a copy and paste function as you are reading, before it purportedly disappears forever.

    Let us not quote something that no longer exists and use it as support for an argument herein.

    One more time and you can converse with yourself on this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    My question, your response above which few will ever get, is the same...



    So, RB, explain the trip wire effect as it relates to this thread.... Please
    Stan---here goes a history lesson from 1945 until 1994 --the US Army stationed the 2nd and 3rd Calvary Regts on a rotating basis on ground/air patrols along the interGerman border---theory was if the Soviet army charged across the border they would be engaged first by the Cav and then be rolled over by the Soviets allowing then the US leadership the excuse to go nuclear.

    A sort of a speed bump/trip wire used in the decision making process by the national command authority---it was assumed that the Soviets knowing that when the speed bump/trip wire had been crossed--- the threat of mutual self destruction would bring them to their senses and or slow them down as they also knew small tactical ADMs were an option to the NCA and the NCA had ADM teams in place.

    That was the theory---it was assumed that in reality the Soviets coming at full speed would have not really slowed down until they hit the Rhine river and it would have taken the NCA that long to figure out if they would go nuclear or not---at the same time the NCA would have released the ADM teams to implement previously pre-planned targeting against selected Soviet/GDR targets in order to gain more time .

    That was the trip wire theory.

    Currently the messaging to Putin is we are serious enough to back up NATO Article 5 if you attack one of the countries we have troops stationed in we will respond-response action not explained-a type of trip wire concept for the Baltics, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Romania, and Bulgaria who are protected under NATO Article 5. It has been the Baltics and Poland demanding the trip wire as they do not believe NATO will and or could defend them and feel threatened by Russia actions towards the Ukraine and their military buildup.

    That though does not apply to the Ukraine thus the verbal talk, diplomacy, and physical appearance of US leaders in Kiev tied to economic and non military support as well as possible intel exchanges and other items.

    The serious side is does Putin care about the theory as he views the West and in particular the US to be weak and not in a position to respond military which by the way NATO/EU/US have all said they will not use force so actually Putin was right in his assumption---this reinforces in Putin's mind the responses he saw during Georgia and Moldavia.

    What is interesting is a recent article indicating that Russia floated a month ago a plan to Poland and other former east block countries surrounding the Ukraine the division of the areas other than eastern and southern Ukraine---ie giving the Poles for example their old areas taken from them by Russia in 1939. By the way---can fish out the Russian Duma official that first floated (at the same time as Crimea was ongoing) that concept if needed as many in the West thought it was a crazy idea---maybe not so crazy if Poland is confirming it now.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...e-ukraine.html

    That is how the speed bump/trip wire concept as it is tied to the thread and that is the messaging being sent with a single rotating BN---or do you disagree?

    Does that explain it closely enough. Google might have it in more detail.

    Not bad memory recall for someone with four wars (VN, Desert Strom, Iraq, AFG) worth of experience and a deep SF UW background in Europe and having not been physically on the interGerman border since 1986.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-24-2014 at 08:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    If you read it, copy it, and paste it. I have not the slightest idea of what a rolling principle means and how that prevents you from a copy and paste function as you are reading, before it purportedly disappears forever.

    Let us not quote something that no longer exists and use it as support for an argument herein.

    One more time and you can converse with yourself on this thread.
    Stan---let me see if I get your comment/threat straight--when I cut and past as you suggested the actual date/time stamp of an actual released press release on Interfax and the date of the release and provide you the link where all releases are time stamped---this is not good enough for what--slow readers or non readers or what?

    Rolling principle means all press releases are time stamped in a rolling fashion based on time stamp on a 24 hour basis and then cached under the date in the calendar that is on their web site where one can go back and conduct research.

    Side note many releases are just summations or short headlines and are just directly linked to the time stamp.

    Interfax carries three types of color coded releases---black for standard, red to highlight something of interest for the Russian government agency side and blue which is tied to an actual released article.

    NOTE: Russia knows the press releases are being read and followed by the West and it is a form of informal communication between East/West and often reinforces private conversations and public actions.

    TASS and NIA Nosvosti also news agencies for Russia do not use the color coded system as Interfax is considered to speak for the government---they do no have the rolling 24 hour cached concept.

    You are right--- do not need to be on this site as much goes in circles as others on the blog side have much more to say especially in the areas of political warfare/UW which is really the current strategy for the Ukraine that Putin is employing and that is not being discussed in this thread and those writers have not crossed over for whatever reason.

    A good example of this political warfare/UW strategy is this article which we have had a taste of here ourselves and I seemed to be the only one to call a spade a spade to the face of the writer or writers. This particular writer/writers was/were worth a separate blog topic.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...n-ukraine.html

    By the way Daily Beast has three good reporters currently on the ground in the Ukraine.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-24-2014 at 08:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Fuchs---the key is they are still not in compliance on the numbers and yes they are melting but it is the old 55/62 and to some degree the 72s which really were for export anyway.

    It is the numbers and their argument was they were at war with the jihadi's and could not come into compliance---and what has been the argument for their non compliance with the numbers in Georgia under the EUMM---they did not even mention it nor has the West.

    The West took the numbers and reduced what they had in their then current inventories under the thought that hey the Cold War is over and Russia seems to be getting to a more peaceful point so hey let's save defense money and go down on our overall defense budgets using OCSE as the excuse. Besides who needs tanks and APCs in AFG or anywhere else for that matter.

    That was in the end a massive mistake and now they are only able to muster what planes, mine clearing ships and AWCS. Even the German tank brigades say in Amberg and other locations have been decommissioned in the current German downsizing that is still going on.
    The Warsaw pact doesn't exist any more, so it's difficult to tell how Russia could violate the '90 treaty. It's not a member of the '99 treaty and the West never was. There's no real case for complaining about Russian non-compliance here.

    And yes, the Cold War is over.


    The problem here (and all over the world, all the time) is that humans get used to almost everything, real quick. They got used so much to the post-Cold War world that they can freak out about 'threats' that would have been barely recognisable during the Cold War when the noise level of threats was much higher.

    So yes, the Cold War is over and yes, Russia is a marginal threat to us now. The fact that Ukraine is not "us" is at the core of the current crisis. They did NOT join "us", and thus Russia is still a very valid defence concern to them to say the least.

    Their security problem isn't that Russia still has stockpiles of 25-50 year old military hardware. Their security problem is that they had a government which wasn't interested in preparing defences and their security forces are now ineffective even against the very small 'troops concentration' nearby.
    A few hundred spec ops guys and a few ten thousand regulars are a seemingly insurmountable problem to the Ukraine because it has no loyal, competent, equipped security forces - their security forces are now less effective than Portugal's and that's no good in their neighbourhood.

  5. #1305
    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Stan---here goes a history lesson from 1945 until 1994 --the US Army stationed the 2nd and 3rd Calvary Regts on a rotating basis on ground/air patrols along the interGerman border---theory was if the Soviet army charged across the border they would be engaged first by the Cav and then be rolled over by the Soviets allowing then the US leadership the excuse to go nuclear.

    A sort of a speed bump/trip wire used in the decision making process by the national command authority---it was assumed that the Soviets knowing that when the speed bump/trip wire had been crossed--- the threat of mutual self destruction would bring them to their senses and or slow them down as they also knew small tactical ADMs were an option to the NCA and the NCA had ADM teams in place.

    That was the theory---it was assumed that in reality the Soviets coming at full speed would have not really slowed down until they hit the Rhine river and it would have taken the NCA that long to figure out if they would go nuclear or not---at the same time the NCA would have released the ADM teams to implement previously pre-planned targeting against selected Soviet/GDR targets in order to gain more time .

    That was the trip wire theory.

    Currently the messaging to Putin is we are serious enough to back up NATO Article 5 if you attack one of the countries we have troops stationed in we will respond-response action not explained-a type of trip wire concept for the Baltics, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Romania, and Bulgaria who are protected under NATO Article 5. It has been the Baltics and Poland demanding the trip wire as they do not believe NATO will and or could defend them and feel threatened by Russia actions towards the Ukraine and their military buildup.

    That though does not apply to the Ukraine thus the verbal talk, diplomacy, and physical appearance of US leaders in Kiev tied to economic and non military support as well as possible intel exchanges and other items.

    The serious side is does Putin care about the theory as he views the West and in particular the US to be weak and not in a position to respond military which by the way NATO/EU/US have all said they will not use force so actually Putin was right in his assumption---this reinforces in Putin's mind the responses he saw during Georgia and Moldavia.

    What is interesting is a recent article indicating that Russia floated a month ago a plan to Poland and other former east block countries surrounding the Ukraine the division of the areas other than eastern and southern Ukraine---ie giving the Poles for example their old areas taken from them by Russia in 1939. By the way---can fish out the Russian Duma official that first floated (at the same time as Crimea was ongoing) that concept if needed as many in the West thought it was a crazy idea---maybe not so crazy if Poland is confirming it now.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...e-ukraine.html

    That is how the speed bump/trip wire concept as it is tied to the thread and that is the messaging being sent with a single rotating BN---or do you disagree?

    Does that explain it closely enough. Google might have it in more detail.

    Not bad memory recall for someone with four wars (VN, Desert Strom, Iraq, AFG) worth of experience and a deep SF UW background in Europe and having not been physically on the interGerman border since 1986.
    History is a little flawed--trip wire went by the board well before 1994and started in the 50s. Your cav regiment IDs are also only half right--but that is not really important. In fact for much of the 70s and 80s, trip wire was not used as you describe. USAREUR/EUCOM believed they could win a conventional war and the cav regiments were to play a significant part in the active defense, being far from just a speed bump or trip wire. But that is not really germane to the current deployments of the 173rd Airborne units out of Italy.

    Having elements of a Bn of the 173rd in the Baltic countries and Poland do not make the Article 5 violation any more urgent. A Russian invasion of any of the 4 countries could trigger a NATO response regardless of the presence of 150 US paratroopers. I would submit that the 173rd is getting to travel for another reason-- probably political and possibly tied to the US defense budget and Army impending downsizing--not the Ukraine.
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  6. #1306
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Outlaw,
    It may have more to do with an individual's inept use of basic computer functions.

    As a common courtesy to other members herein, one quotes using a wrap and provides a link.

    If you subscribe and pay, you can read interfax all foxtroting day long.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    ---this is not good enough for what--slow readers or non readers or what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Mirhond,
    Russian cossacks with nazi backround is super irony. Russians say that Ukrainians and Russians are brothers, but now the representatives of extreme nationalism are fighting each other. At the same time Russia is trying to find allies in this fight among European rights. Oo, brothers, sort thing brother thing first out before going to crusade.
    For me as outsider, this subculture of pravoslavye cossacks, is interesting new study topic. Mirhond, can you suggest me reading list? First book should be "Two hundred years together" by Solzhenitsyn?
    1. Very good point. I believe a good decimation of Banderas and Cossacks killing each other would be helpful in restoring peace.

    2. Sorry, I have no idea about these weirdos. I havn't read mentioned Solzh book, cant help with this either.
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    Default Small snag or turning the tap off?

    The canal authorities in Ukraine say Crimea has accumulated a huge debt for water supplied last year. The dispute is aggravated by the breakdown in relations between Kiev and Moscow. The water supply to Crimea has diminished from 50 cu m (1,765 cu ft) per second to about 16 cu m per second, Crimea's new pro-Russian authorities say.

    Link with map:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27155885
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    About cossacks and military. This is last year's military parade from Krasnodar. Cossacks appear 6:10

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evFU4_f2IR4

    This is part of parade part with "Tigr" jeeps.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KM5vjuY1DrM


    Photo from Crimea. Tigr with number 7842/21

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...n-comm-011.jpg

    In parade second line, first Tige is with number 7845/21, wich means that this jeep is from same company that was in action in Crimea.

    According to this article two last numbers indicate military district (21), two first numbers indicate military unit (78), third number shows company (4).

    http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/62578.html
    Last edited by kaur; 04-26-2014 at 01:06 PM.

  10. #1310
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    Default Ukrainian Info Ops step up

    The Security Service has released an audio recording of conversations concerning the murder of Volodymyr Rybak, Deputy of Horlivka City Council. As reported, it is the group under so-called ‘Shooter’, which operates in Donetsk Oblast, and a citizen of the Russian Federation, Lieutenant Colonel of the National Intelligence Agency (GRU) Igor Bezler.
    Link:http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/25/s...killed-deputy/

    I waited till English sub-titles were added, although there is a transcript. The victim has been buried. An earlier BBC report:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27119621
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    Quote Originally Posted by wm View Post
    History is a little flawed--trip wire went by the board well before 1994and started in the 50s. Your cav regiment IDs are also only half right--but that is not really important. In fact for much of the 70s and 80s, trip wire was not used as you describe. USAREUR/EUCOM believed they could win a conventional war and the cav regiments were to play a significant part in the active defense, being far from just a speed bump or trip wire. But that is not really germane to the current deployments of the 173rd Airborne units out of Italy.

    Having elements of a Bn of the 173rd in the Baltic countries and Poland do not make the Article 5 violation any more urgent. A Russian invasion of any of the 4 countries could trigger a NATO response regardless of the presence of 150 US paratroopers. I would submit that the 173rd is getting to travel for another reason-- probably political and possibly tied to the US defense budget and Army impending downsizing--not the Ukraine.


    The correct unit designations were the 2nd and 3rd ACRs and I am not sure even up to 1989 neither USAREUR/EUCOM but mainly USAREUR felt they could not win in a direct confrontation from the get go---if that were the case then a number of USA SF teams carrying ADMs destined to create choke points and to deny freedom of movement and slow resupply would not have been needed.

    It was felt that the 2 ACRs would never be enough to slow, stop and or defeat the initial charges of the Soviet Army Ground Forces Germany.

    USAREUR moved additional armored assets to Garlstedt Lower Saxony in 85/86 timeframes in order to give an additional slow down effect and to get them out of the so called drug infested large German cities which did not in the end work but it was a great completely new base.

    That was just the Army issues---the AF side was even more complicated as the Soviet AD rings built using the SAM 6/8s would have based on loss calculations decimated USAF assets that were forward based.

    Everything at that point in 1986 was designed to slow down and provide time for follow on forces out of the States to reach Europe.

    Not sure where you get your information but the US needed time to get the large Reforger designated units into Europe as flow on follow on units---thus the need to create time in a holding formation. Remember the Reforger concept and you failed to mention that and the US had starting in 1968 moving a large number of it's units back to the States and kept pre-positioned equipment for the Reforger units to fall in on which they then turned back into the depots when completing the Reforger exercises---so where is this idea USAREUR felt they could win from the get go.

    If you talked with those from the 2/3ACRs they never envisioned living long enough to see the 1st CAV make it into Europe from Ft.Hood which was one of the USAREUR designated heavy armored divisions. Remember in 1989 it was the Apaches that played hide and seek with opposition tanks and those Apaches came from the US.

    Not sure where you were in 1986 but the Warsaw Pact conducted one of the largest exercises up to that point which had USAREUR stunned at what was pulled up to by the Soviet Ground Forces Germany within 30kms of the inner German border (and in Lower Saxony up to within 3kms) and what was then pulled into their secondary lines in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

    The last Reforger exercise was in 1989 and the Soviets also pulled up an equally large number of their Soviet Ground Forces Germany units and matched unit for unit near the innerGerman border.

    There was some new thinking for that exercise that the old Fulda Gap scenario might have been in fact wrong when the Soviet Ground Forces suddenly shifted their armored assets more northerly and focused on the Lower Saxony border area (UK protected zone) which reflected their interest in cutting all follow on resupply coming in via Holland and a shorter run to the Rhine River. That was also one of the major thoughts behind the repositioning of US armored assets into Lower Saxony and extremely close to the inner German border as the UK did not even in 1989 have large ground forces based in the border area.

    By the last Reforger exercise in 1989 we did see indications of this new Soviet concept being played out in their exercises.

    This was posted today by a previously provided Ukrainian link and one can or cannot accept it but it is probably next to the Breedlove photo release one of the best listings of Russian Army Order of Battle arrayed now on the Ukrainian/Crimea border region by named Russian units and equipment available.

    Reminds one of the inner German border days in 1989 but we only had to deal with T72/80s not the newer T80/90s.

    So you are assuming the 173rd is just for what justifying more money in an already defined and approved military budget with a planned sequester feature kicking in at the middle of this year---come on wm the 173rd is happy to be on the road for live fire exercises especially if you have ever spent eight hours on just getting to and from their own Italian live fire ranges besides they get bored in a hurry if you have seen their old and now new installations as they finished their last AFG rotation and they had only African training events on the horizon in the coming years and with the current Army wide limited training budget they are happy to be on the move as there was not much to keep them busy and there was a serious conversation in late 2013 on whether they would in fact remain in Italy or be moved to Grafenwoehr and or back to the States as their artillery Bn is in Grafenwoehr after the latest round of base closures in Germany.

    Heck with the limited training budgets and limited AF assets in Europe they were having trouble just getting their pay jumps in for the BNs.

    http://inforesist.org/numbers-rf-arm...iness/?lang=en
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-26-2014 at 07:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    The Warsaw pact doesn't exist any more, so it's difficult to tell how Russia could violate the '90 treaty. It's not a member of the '99 treaty and the West never was. There's no real case for complaining about Russian non-compliance here.

    And yes, the Cold War is over.


    The problem here (and all over the world, all the time) is that humans get used to almost everything, real quick. They got used so much to the post-Cold War world that they can freak out about 'threats' that would have been barely recognisable during the Cold War when the noise level of threats was much higher.

    So yes, the Cold War is over and yes, Russia is a marginal threat to us now. The fact that Ukraine is not "us" is at the core of the current crisis. They did NOT join "us", and thus Russia is still a very valid defence concern to them to say the least.

    Their security problem isn't that Russia still has stockpiles of 25-50 year old military hardware. Their security problem is that they had a government which wasn't interested in preparing defences and their security forces are now ineffective even against the very small 'troops concentration' nearby.
    A few hundred spec ops guys and a few ten thousand regulars are a seemingly insurmountable problem to the Ukraine because it has no loyal, competent, equipped security forces - their security forces are now less effective than Portugal's and that's no good in their neighbourhood.
    Fuchs---check your OCSE dates and Yes Russia is a signatory of the various OCSE treaties and thus required to meet disarmament compliance numbers as was the rest of NATO.

    Check this link---you do not have to believe it or not but it is the current Russian Army Order of Battle of the forces arrayed on the Ukrainian and Crimea border regions and it is a tad larger than the current number of Russian special operations/GRU types already inside eastern Ukraine.

    http://inforesist.org/numbers-rf-arm...iness/?lang=en

    Fuchs---check the Russian OB again and tell me you statement below is correct.

    A few hundred spec ops guys and a few ten thousand regulars are a seemingly insurmountable problem to the Ukraine because it has no loyal, competent, equipped security forces - their security forces are now less effective than Portugal's and that's no good in their neighbourhood

    If the Russian OB is correct and the forces arrayed are accurately portrayed THEN all current NATO countries would have problems countering the current Russian force composition-this includes the US--this is the new professional Russian Army in a very functional and efficient battle formation array designed for speed, shock and awe coupled with close air support and fighter air cover coupled with AWCS.

    By the way this does not include the latest Russian Air Defense Bdes sent to Kaliningrad which can effectively limit NATO aircraft movements in the Baltics and the S300s based in the Crimea which will limit any aircraft movement in the south.

    Remember the latest Russian Army troop movements came to a stop within 1km from the Ukrainian border and it was more than just a BN and it was accompanied by fighter aircraft providing air/ground attack support.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 04-26-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  13. #1313
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    Default Bumpy ride in the east

    Professor John Schindler has a new commentary, a large part comes from a Belarus journalist's ten hour visit and detention in:
    Slovyansk, which is the epicenter of Russia’s stage-managed “rebellion” in Eastern Ukraine.
    It has a key passage on the local population's attitude to their new rulers:
    You know, their attitude to the occupiers is as if to some kind of bad weather. Look – a thunderstorm, a tempest, or a gale has hit: What can you do about it?! They do not support this, they simply have to resign themselves to it. I heard various people utter the phrase: “Everything was okay before their arrival.” In a certain sense, this can be assessed as support for Ukraine. Naturally, it is weak. A person will probably not fight for this, and will even submit if the territory is occupied.
    But nevertheless, I did not meet a single person who said: “Yes, they are my protectors, they are standing up for us here. And just you get out of here, European villains!” Not one person said this.

    Then his summary:
    There you have it: provocations, intimidation, ethnic cleansing among a freak-show of alcoholics, gangsters, Orthodox “warriors,” and GRU operatives, amidst lots of innocent people trapped with nowhere to escape … some great insights there into what de facto Russian rule in Eastern Ukraine actually looks like. As I write, Slovyansk “militants” have stated they will only free their OSCE captives in exchange for prisoners held by Kyiv. It’s going to be a bumpy ride, watch this space …

    Link:http://20committee.com/2014/04/26/sl...muda-triangle/
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  14. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Fuchs---check your OCSE dates and Yes Russia is a signatory of the various OCSE treaties and thus required to meet disarmament compliance numbers as was the rest of NATO.

    Check this link---you do not have to believe it or not but it is the current Russian Army Order of Battle of the forces arrayed on the Ukrainian and Crimea border regions
    (...)
    If the Russian OB is correct and the forces arrayed are accurately portrayed THEN all current NATO countries would have problems countering the current Russian force composition (...)
    I doubt it makes sense to discuss whether "all current NATO countries" actually "would have problems countering" a few ten thousand troops. There are always problems in warfare, but the meaning of "problems" in the strategic context is absurd here.


    About the OSCE dates:

    CFE treaty signed November 19, 1990

    Adapted Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty signed November 19, 1999. Ratified by Russia (suspended 2007), Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine. Too few ratifications, thus not in force and not requiring Russia to do anything.

    I wrote "1990" and "1999", so I see no problem with the dates.
    I do see a problem with your counterfactual assertion that Russia violates a treaty which is actually not in force for lack of Western ratifications.

    My "not a member" choice of words was maybe inaccurate, as they merely suspended their membership, but I was broadly correct even therewith.


    BTW, AWACS is a specific system. The category of these systems is AEW&C (airborne early warning and control), a confusion similar to the widespread MLRS/MRL confusion.

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    I speculate that those Tigrs that start with 78 belong to this 10th GRU brigade, because here is one that ends with 51.

    http://www.yuga.ru/photo/polosa/1126.html

    Little history http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/gru/10obrsn.htm

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aOWpormfMI8

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    Article in Russian about cossacks joint exercise with spetsnaz in Southern military district in 2012.

    http://www.vestikavkaza.ru/news/Spet...-kazakami.html

    Cossacks in 2. Chechen war.

    Cossack Detachment

    Closer to January, on the initiative of Albastov, the Ataman of the Grozny department of the Tersk Cossack Division, the GRU leadershup agreed the formation of a parallel Cossack spetsnaz detachment. But in its first stages it acted independently from its Chechen counterpart.

    Karl Andreevich Gerter, an atamann of Yakutsk Stanitsa was one of the first to join the division. An excellent hunter and mountaineer, he first served in the First Chechen War, as a Serjeant, when the reserve officers hadn't been called up. Keen to fight, he hid his officer's rank from the recruitment office. In the second campaign, this time in the Spetsnaz, he again became a senior lieutenant, deputy group commander.

    Later, when he was 46 years old, he gained the rank of captain and special forces group commander. He also brought with him the Cossacks who were part of his group. These units were usually composed of the ataman of a stanitsa, and a group of between 9-12 men. They would come from all across Russia and even Belarus. Many Cossacks had no military special military training. They acted in ways deemed unusual, non-traditional, even by the GRU special forces.
    http://www.agentura.ru/english/spetsnaz/gru1998-2010/

  17. #1317
    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    This is not really the thread to discuss Cold War history, but I will respond to several obvious inaccuracies
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    The correct unit designations were the 2nd and 3rd ACRs
    3rd ACR came back to the USA in 1968, returning for REFORGER 78 and 88 IIRC. The 2nd and 11th ACRs were the ACRs for the 2 USAREUR Corps.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    I am not sure even up to 1989 neither USAREUR/EUCOM but mainly USAREUR felt they could not win in a direct confrontation from the get go---if that were the case then a number of USA SF teams carrying ADMs destined to create choke points and to deny freedom of movement and slow resupply would not have been needed.
    Teams may have been planned for ADMs, but that was only one of many branches and sequels to the war plans. SF teams weren't just wandering around with man-portable nukes. Do you have any idea what a nut roll it was to get authorization for release of nukes in Europe? We used to practice the process in Corps/Division HQ CPXs.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    It was felt that the 2 ACRs would never be enough to slow, stop and or defeat the initial charges of the Soviet Army Ground Forces Germany
    The revision of FM 100-5 in 1976 was the basis for rethinking how the US Army would fight and win in Germany . The cav was a part of that effort, not the whole of it. I'm not sure where you get you claim to the contrary; perhaps, from anecdotal discussions with folks who were not really in a position to know. I used to play rugby against guys in those Cav regiments, many of whom were Troop Commanders or Squadron/Regimental staff officers. They were sure they were going to stop Ivan cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    USAREUR moved additional armored assets to Garlstedt Lower Saxony in 85/86 timeframes in order to give an additional slow down effect and to get them out of the so called drug infested large German cities which did not in the end work but it was a great completely new base.
    3rd Bde of 2nd AD arrived from TX (not German cities) in Garlstedt in 1978, not 1985, as 2AD (forward) and stayed there until 1990 when it deployed for DS/DS, returned from the desert and was finally deactivated in 1992. BTW Garlstedt is indeed in Niedersachsen, but is north of Bremen, in the NORTHAG sector. The majority of US Forces were in CENTAG. BTW, In addition to all of 1st AD, 3rd AD, 3rd ID, and 8th ID, 1st ID and 4th ID also each had a brigade forward--4th ID's Bde was in V Corps, 1st ID's Bde was in VII Corps.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Everything at that point in 1986 was designed to slow down and provide time for follow on forces out of the States to reach Europe.

    Not sure where you get your information but the US needed time to get the large Reforger designated units into Europe as flow on follow on units---thus the need to create time in a holding formation. Remember the Reforger concept and you failed to mention that and the US had starting in 1968 moving a large number of it's units back to the States and kept pre-positioned equipment for the Reforger units to fall in on which they then turned back into the depots when completing the Reforger exercises---so where is this idea USAREUR felt they could win from the get go.
    As part of the 1984 REFORGER/Operation CERTAIN FURY Planning team in CONUS, I know all about time frames for getting troops to Germany and equipped at the various POMCUS sites. TPFDD and TPFDLs still give me bad dreams.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Not sure where you were in 1986 but the Warsaw Pact conducted one of the largest exercises up to that point which had USAREUR stunned at what was pulled up to by the Soviet Ground Forces Germany within 30kms of the inner German border (and in Lower Saxony up to within 3kms) and what was then pulled into their secondary lines in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
    Back when I worked the problem directly in the 70s and 80s, we were well aware of the availability of Soviet forces in GSFG, NGF, CGF, and SGF and the Western MDs, not to mention the WP forces of EGer, Pol, Czech, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    The last Reforger exercise was in 1989
    REFORGER continued until 1993.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    There was some new thinking for that exercise that the old Fulda Gap scenario might have been in fact wrong when the Soviet Ground Forces suddenly shifted their armored assets more northerly and focused on the Lower Saxony border area (UK protected zone) which reflected their interest in cutting all follow on resupply coming in via Holland and a shorter run to the Rhine River. That was also one of the major thoughts behind the repositioning of US armored assets into Lower Saxony and extremely close to the inner German border as the UK did not even in 1989 have large ground forces based in the border area.
    I mentioned this alternative in a prior post and that I was a member of those who were suggesting it back in1978 or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    This http://inforesist.org/numbers-rf-arm...iness/?lang=en(Relocated by wm from location in original post) was posted today by a previously provided Ukrainian link and one can or cannot accept it but it is probably next to the Breedlove photo release one of the best listings of Russian Army Order of Battle arrayed now on the Ukrainian/Crimea border region by named Russian units and equipment available.

    Reminds one of the inner German border days in 1989 but we only had to deal with T72/80s not the newer T80/90s.
    From my review of the content of that link, the data is a presentation of someone's belief, not necessarily actuality. I assess it as F6.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    So you are assuming the 173rd is just for what justifying more money in an already defined and approved military budget with a planned sequester feature kicking in at the middle of this year---come on wm the 173rd is happy to be on the road for live fire exercises especially if you have ever spent eight hours on just getting to and from their own Italian live fire ranges besides they get bored in a hurry if you have seen their old and now new installations as they finished their last AFG rotation and they had only African training events on the horizon in the coming years and with the current Army wide limited training budget they are happy to be on the move as there was not much to keep them busy and there was a serious conversation in late 2013 on whether they would in fact remain in Italy or be moved to Grafenwoehr and or back to the States as their artillery Bn is in Grafenwoehr after the latest round of base closures in Germany.

    Heck with the limited training budgets and limited AF assets in Europe they were having trouble just getting their pay jumps in for the BNs.
    I said political or budget related reasons--I did not further specify. I wonder how you got all of the above from what I said. Perhaps part of the political reason was to get them out of Italy before they started getting cabin fever and messed up Italy (all in good, testosterone-pumped fun of course--that's just what airborne troops do ) I don't know, but please don't put words in my mouth.
    Last edited by wm; 04-27-2014 at 01:48 AM. Reason: cite amendment in quotation
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
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  18. #1318
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wm View Post
    REFORGER continued until 1993.
    Yep, May 1993 in Kaiserslautern. most of us knew that though

    But, it does ever so slightly relate to this thread, assuming the Ukraine joins NATO.

    Maybe we'll call it REFORUK... but that could be confused with yanks returning to the UK
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

  19. #1319
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Do you guys think Putin's grabbing of the OSCE officers is sort of a reply of the grift he ran on us in Syria? In Syria he managed to adroitly shift the attention of our chief executive from Assad's action to the status of his chem weapons stockpile. Got an agreement that was ignored and neatly put Assad's action into the land of the forgotten.

    In this case he snatches the officers then will generously offer to intercede with himself to get them released. He thereby shifts attention from an looming invasion to some individuals and will gain great gratitude and approbation for himself when he is able to finally convince himself to release them, for a price of course.

    The more I see of this the more I think we may be underestimating this guy. He's on the ball. Right now him vs our guys is like Bismark vs a very concerned high school sophomore.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  20. #1320
    Council Member TheCurmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Yep, May 1993 in Kaiserslautern. most of us knew that though

    But, it does ever so slightly relate to this thread, assuming the Ukraine joins NATO.

    Maybe we'll call it REFORUK... but that could be confused with yanks returning to the UK
    We were confused anyway. I always thought REFORGER was a name of some super-secret forge we had somewhere.
    "I can change almost anything ... but I can't change human nature."

    Jon Osterman/Dr. Manhattan
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