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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, the counter-Maiden in eastern Ukraine continues to escalate as the authority of Kiev collapses. From New York Times, quoting the (unelected) President in Kiev:

    “Inactivity, helplessness and even criminal betrayal” plague the security forces, the acting leader, Oleksandr V. Turchynov, told a meeting of regional governors in Kiev. “It is hard to accept but it’s the truth. The majority of law enforcers in the east are incapable of performing their duties.”
    What has Kiev done to ensure the loyalty of its security officers? Probably not as much as Moscow has done in trying to subvert them. And as I've mentioned previously, the austerity program will continue unabated and without regard for the political consequences:

    On top of nerves, Ukraine’s economy is worryingly frail. The board of the International Monetary Fund voted Wednesday to approve $17 billion in loans for Ukraine, with conditions that will undoubtedly be felt as hardships by ordinary Ukrainians. Igor Burakovsky, head of the Institute for Economic Research and Policy Consulting, said on Wednesday that Ukraine’s foreign debt amounts to $73.2 billion.
    It's easy to blame Moscow for the complete failure in political strategy, and to suggest that there's an SVR/GRU boogeyman behind every unhelpful event, but the truth of the matter is that the Kiev administration has done nothing whatsoever to rebuild its legitimacy in the eastern regions and with ethnic Russians. The anti-Kiev sentiment is strong, and the organization and resources (allegedly) provided by Moscow does nothing to help matters. But this is an eastern mirror of the Maiden events in Kiev that ousted Yanukovych, and like Yanukovych, the Kiev administration has been careless in providing opportunities for its opposition to exploit.

    And of course, in desperation with the failure of the regular army and the national guard units to actually secure the eastern territories by force, Kiev introduces conscription (which was originally abolished by Yanukovych):

    Ukraine's pro-Western leaders conceded on Wednesday they were 'helpless' to counter the fall of government buildings and police stations to the separatists in the Donbass coal and steel belt of eastern Ukraine, source of around a third of the country's industrial output.
    From BBC:

    On Thursday, his office said in a statement that conscription was being introduced "given the deteriorating situation in the east and the south... the rising force of armed pro-Russian units and the taking of public administration buildings... which threaten territorial integrity".
    It appears that Kiev administration's political position is increasingly untenable.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    mirhond, thank you for forcing me to think

    — Если отталкиваться от типа населенных пунктов, то где поддержка Путина выше, а где ниже?

    — Максимум поддержки Путина сегодня приходится на большие и средние города. Особенно те, где сохранились остатки советской промышленности, которые заставляют людей ориентироваться на поддержку государства. Затем, по убывающей, идут малые города с населением до 250 тысяч и средние депрессивные города. Еще более низкая поддержка Путина — в селе. В совокупности малые, средние депрессивные города и село представляют собой консервативную провинцию, где фиксируется сильное напряжение и недовольство, связанное с отказом государства от выполнения социальных обязательств. А ниже всего поддержка Путина в Москве.
    Если мы возьмем охват аудитории Первого канала, ВГТРК и НТВ, то он составляет более 90% населения, в то время как интернетом для получения новостей пользуются не более 20% россиян. Соответственно, люди зависят от того, что им говорит телевидение
    .

    http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2014/0..._5948629.shtml

    AmericanPride, wouldn't it be more easy to handle Eastern Ukraine problems without Russian special services guys acting as provocators? I speculate that without Taliban it would be easier to promote peaceful solutions in Afganistan. Isn't easier to solve problems without spoilers?
    Last edited by kaur; 05-01-2014 at 10:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    AmericanPride, wouldn't it be more easy to handle Eastern Ukraine problems without Russian special services guys acting as provocators? I speculate that without Taliban it would be easier to promote peaceful solutions in Afganistan. Isn't easier to solve problems without spoilers?
    Yeah - probably. But is it realistic to expect that?

    EDIT: Also, I'm willing to bet that the Kremlin's masters are thinking something similar: wouldn't it be easier to maintain Ukraine's allegience without American money and political interference acting as spoilers?
    Last edited by AmericanPride; 05-01-2014 at 10:55 PM.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Yeah - probably. But is it realistic to expect that?

    EDIT: Also, I'm willing to bet that the Kremlin's masters are thinking something similar: wouldn't it be easier to maintain Ukraine's allegience without American money and political interference acting as spoilers?
    Heck yea it's realistic to expect Russki spec ops types not to be there. You oppose them and force them out. There are many ways. They range from shooting them dead or putting a lot of pressure, actual real live that really hurts pressure, on Vlad the would be Great to withdraw them. But it requires action.

    Yea you're right the Kremlin masters are probably thinking that. They probably thought the same thing about Western support for pesky Polish shipyard workers in the old days.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Yea you're right the Kremlin masters are probably thinking that. They probably thought the same thing about Western support for pesky Polish shipyard workers in the old days.
    And that's the point. The morality of it is irrelevant. As you said, "results matter". And the result thus far has been continued Russian success, Ukrainian instability, and Western posturing. I don't think Moscow wants escalation any more than Washington does, insofar that escalation increases the chances of a decision point between credibility and costly intervention. The low-level agitation works in Moscow's favor and it'll be interesting to see how it shapes the elections - assuming they're going to be held. What we should be doing is attempting to mitigate any further losses rather than reversing Russia's gains.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    And that's the point. The morality of it is irrelevant. As you said, "results matter". And the result thus far has been continued Russian success, Ukrainian instability, and Western posturing. I don't think Moscow wants escalation any more than Washington does, insofar that escalation increases the chances of a decision point between credibility and costly intervention. The low-level agitation works in Moscow's favor and it'll be interesting to see how it shapes the elections - assuming they're going to be held. What we should be doing is attempting to mitigate any further losses rather than reversing Russia's gains.
    You say "...we should be doing...". That is the key and effectively we are doing nothing right now. Mitigate, reversing, prevent, defending-we can figure that out but none of it can be done unless we get to doing.
    Last edited by carl; 05-02-2014 at 04:41 PM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    I take the freedom to dump a text from my blog here, since it relates to the topic. The properly formatted version is here.

    Putin's approach to aggressions is an interesting one. It appears he
    has recognised the limitations of his freedom of action, found and began to
    exploit loopholes.

    An all-out conventional invasion, 1914-style, is apparently out of question to
    him. Russia lacks the forces to pull this off on a grand scale, at least without
    exposing itself too much.
    His exploits appear to range up to army corps size instead (South Ossetia
    2008) - with all other power being held in the back, as a political equivalent
    to a "fleet in being". This restricts the freedom of action of other great
    powers. Small powers can probably not pull off the same risky games for they
    lack this component - even if they could easily muster forces equivalent to
    the ones employed actively.

    Traditional Cold War deterrence rested on the fear that a too bold move
    might lead to World War III, and the demise of European civilisation. There
    were no aggressive moves done in Europe proper after the Berlin blockade;
    both blocs were content with keeping their own line*. Bold moves were
    largely restricted to Asia, with proxies and at times small numbers of
    opposing great power troops fighting against each other**.

    There as a fear that some bold, yet incremental, moves could be dared in
    Europe - and it was difficult to define when exactly such incremental
    offenses should lead to mobilisation or war. A British satire (a "Yes, Prime
    Minister!" episode, see 7:04 minutes and after) explained this better than
    articles or books ever did. Also remember the metaphor of boiling frogs.


    Putin appears to have thought of this incremental approach when he decided
    to send paramilitary troops without national insignias into the Crimea.


    He did apparently also take into account that the Ukraine is not allied with
    any country.


    Finally, the third ingredient; international law had been stretched somewhat
    prior to the move.


    Putin did stretch his freedom of action in face of International Law
    proponents prior to the conflict with Georgia in 2008 by exposing
    'peacekeeper' troops. Georgia proceeded to attack South Ossetia at some
    point and this included firing on peacekeepers. At that point Putin had a
    semi-plausible excuse for intervention. His intervention was not as blatant as
    the intervention of Kuwait 1990, for example. Him withdrawing after fait
    accompli avoided troubles as well.


    The stretching of International Law for the invasion(s) of the Ukraine wasn't
    done by Putin himself. This damage was done by Western great powers which
    had a fit of arrogance and short-sightedly decided that rule of force suits
    them better than rule of law. Rule of law was supposedly a concept to be
    applied on other powers only.

    Except that the "other powers" includes some great powers which evidently
    can behave arrogantly as well.

    2014-02 Hypocrisy in effect

    It would help if the same Western great powers reaffirmed the importance of
    international law in a non-hypocritical way. They could admit guilt, seek and
    accept a ruling about compensations and - most importantly - refrain from
    further violations.

    This won't happen, of course.Only losing aggressors have to show regret in
    this world.

    Another approach to close the loopholes would be to expand the collective
    defence systems; offer an alliance of some kind to the Ukraine. This is most
    unlikely as well. It would lead to further conflict and might end up being
    much too expensive. The Ukraine is not too big to fail, after all. Nothing in
    there is really crucial to the West (for historical reasons), while much in there
    is crucial to Russia.

    Finally, one could tune up the reaction to incremental moves and effectively
    turn incremental moves into too big moves thereby. This appears to be the
    preferred approach among Western great power governments.

  8. #8
    Council Member mirhond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    mirhond, thank you for forcing me to think

    — Если отталкиваться от типа населенных пунктов, то где поддержка Путина выше, а где ниже?

    http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2014/0..._5948629.shtml

    AmericanPride, wouldn't it be more easy to handle Eastern Ukraine problems without Russian special services guys acting as provocators? I speculate that without Taliban it would be easier to promote peaceful solutions in Afganistan. Isn't easier to solve problems without spoilers?
    1. Again, approval does not mean support.
    2.
    чем дольше на территории была советская власть, тем больше люди придерживаются советских патерналистских взглядов. Чем дальше на запад Украины, тем свободнее люди.
    That's a message from West Ukraine to East - you are all soviet scum, while we are the paragons of freedom. So, why you still surprised that Kievan junta political sentiments arn't popular in the East? You can't handle the fact that these people don't like to be called bad names? Bad for you, then, your ignorance remain untouched.
    3. I speculate that the world without poverty, illiteracy, inequality, opression, armies and organised religions would be much better - will my speculations help the reality?
    Last edited by mirhond; 05-02-2014 at 11:35 AM.
    Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.

  9. #9
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Meanwhile, the counter-Maiden in eastern Ukraine continues to escalate as the authority of Kiev collapses. From New York Times, quoting the (unelected) President in Kiev:

    What has Kiev done to ensure the loyalty of its security officers? Probably not as much as Moscow has done in trying to subvert them. And as I've mentioned previously, the austerity program will continue unabated and without regard for the political consequences:

    It's easy to blame Moscow for the complete failure in political strategy, and to suggest that there's an SVR/GRU boogeyman behind every unhelpful event, but the truth of the matter is that the Kiev administration has done nothing whatsoever to rebuild its legitimacy in the eastern regions and with ethnic Russians. The anti-Kiev sentiment is strong, and the organization and resources (allegedly) provided by Moscow does nothing to help matters. But this is an eastern mirror of the Maiden events in Kiev that ousted Yanukovych, and like Yanukovych, the Kiev administration has been careless in providing opportunities for its opposition to exploit.
    The current Kiev government has only been around a short time so they are outmatched by an organized military assault by Russia (sans unit patches of course). That isn't really an excuse because results matter right now. However results do matter in the long run too. We'll see how the Ivans do if they keep moving into Ukraine. The Ukrainians have a tradition of insurgency which matters in small war.

    I don't know how strong the anti-Kiev sentiment is. Maybe, but most of the reports I read seem to indicate the people involved are Russian spec ops, drunks, Russian riot tourists and thugs. The latest XX Committee blog entry has a story about how the streets in the affected towns are empty except for the people I mentioned above. The Roma are gone because they were chased out.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    And of course, in desperation with the failure of the regular army and the national guard units to actually secure the eastern territories by force, Kiev introduces conscription (which was originally abolished by Yanukovych):

    From BBC:

    It appears that Kiev administration's political position is increasingly untenable.
    I find it completely unremarkable that a country under attack institutes conscription. The Kiev administrations military position seems to be very bad and maybe getting worse. Political position? That is a longer run thing. We'll see.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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