Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[mirhond]

Ukrainians will know that their only hope of independence and freedom from Russian domination will be to obtain nuclear weapons.

Replace "Ukrainians" with %nationname%, "Russians" with "Americans" and this statement become even more close to the truth.

[Fuchs]

Replace "Ukrainians" with %nationname%, "Russians" with "Americans" and this statement become even more close to the truth.

There is a much cheaper way for this.

[JMA]

There is a much cheaper way for this.

That is not a credible argument.

Any unity of purpose in Europe - as has been seen during the Russian invasion of Ukraine - is near impossible without US leadership... and in this case with US leadership being impotent Europe's response to Russian aggression was pathetic (as pathetic as that of the US).

The potential problems in Europe start with Russian dreams of reestablishing their empire, Islamic based terrorism and in third place - with the departure of the US - a resurgence of the Germany of old.

The US is no longer willing or indeed able to provide a security umbrella in Europe against Russian aggression - or in the Pacific as a counter to China - so yes Europe needs to learn to stand on its own two feet. Who will lead Europe in this? Germany? That would a recipe for disaster.

[davidbfpo]

Readers can judge for themselves the debate on this sometimes controversial thread and in the knowledge there is rarely agreement on what has happened nor what should happen now.

It is a fact that in eastern Ukraine there is a Russian-speaking minority, which sometimes can be a majority (earlier in this thread are maps showing this IIRC). Ukraine has a history of population movement as a result of wars and borders changing - something I expect they all know today. In the inter-war years and in 1945 there were several examples of voluntary and compulsory population exchanges.

At the moment there is no credible Ukrainian capability or will to engage in such a transfer. Note there are some reports from the Crimea that Tatars and others wish to exit.

I have asked JMA to be clearer as to what he is advocating (he later replied via PM).

[Balcacer]

Should we go for Ukraine or go for Russia ?
Here in Latin America we do not knowwhat is the real stuff in Ukraine.
To much pro west or pro Russia.
Who has the truth?

[carl]

Should we go for Ukraine or go for Russia ?
Here in Latin America we do not knowwhat is the real stuff in Ukraine.
To much pro west or pro Russia.
Who has the truth?

One thing I always thought was helpful when judging these things was this: where do people immigrate to and where do they emigrate from? Do the people from the West mostly move to Russia or do Russians mostly move to the West?

[OUTLAW 09]

For those that do not believe Russian is in fact involved directly in eastern and southern Ukraine---here is one of their drones which was shot down a couple of days ago in the Donbas region---believe near the airport fighting.

http://inforesist.org/ukrainian-secu...ussia/?lang=en


The Russian army is getting supplies of locally produced Unmanned Ariel Vehicles, UAVs. Recent tests show that they are not inferior to similar vehicles made in other countries and even surpass them in several key aspects. A commission consisting of ground force generals watched attentively how experts operate the Russian drones and how they carry out surveillance missions.


The Russian army is getting supplies of locally produced Unmanned Ariel Vehicles, UAVs. Recent tests show that they are not inferior to similar vehicles made in other countries and even surpass them in several key aspects.

A commission consisting of ground force generals watched attentively how experts operate the Russian drones and how they carry out surveillance missions. The experts focused on how the UAVs determine the coordinates precisely and how they deliver information.

Eventually, the Defence Ministry chose several drones. They are the “Orlan” developed by the Special Technological Centre, the “Lastochka” of the “Zala” Company and the “Eleron” of the “Eniks” Company. However, the “Orlan” surpassed its competitors in carrying out missions close to combat conditions, says Roman Ivanov, head of the St. Petersburg-based Special Technological Centre.

“The use of advanced composite materials in engines and controlling systems has made it possible to achieve unique characteristics,” says Roman Ivanov. “This made it possible to make them ultra-light and consequently, to take sufficient fuel to fly about 15 hours continuously. The average speed of the UAV is 150 kilometers per hour, and the range is up to 600 kilometers,” Roman Ivanov said.

Russia’s Border Guard Service has shown keen interest in the UAV “Orlan” because it is irreplaceable in monitoring distant targets. The “Orlan” can carry up to ten kilograms of equipment and fly at heights of between 4.5 and 7.0 kilometers.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/2010/11/12/33725547/

[OUTLAW 09]

Fuchs---just a side comment---is not the eastern elections coupled with Chechen fighters now in eastern Ukraine and their stated desire to join Russia in reality "moving an entire population" from one existing state to another existing state---why is that then viewed as "ethnic cleansing".

There have been some serious thoughts given to say letting the Donbas "depart" the Ukraine---why the economic cost for both the EU and Ukraine in modernizing the industrial base and the infrastructure is massive.

Ask the Russians what the costs are now just for the Crimea just to keep it semi stable---even though the cost of food is now 50% more, fuel is only available for a max of two days at any given time, water is short and on and on---check the small comments coming out of the Crimea indicating buyers remorse is sitting in.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---there are no "Russians" in eastern Ukraine---come on guy at least agree Chechens have a Russian passport and at least agree the Vostok BN has worked together with your friends the FSB/GRU.

http://www.rferl.org/content/vostok-.../25404785.html


http://inforesist.org/43-corpses-of-...to-18/?lang=en

[OUTLAW 09]

Fuchs---I could sum up JMAs comments by the following-- was not the recent statements by Merkel and Obama that if the Russians interfered in the elections and or physically got involved in the eastern Ukraine stage three sanctions would be started.

1. there was massive interference in the eastern and southern Ukraine to the election process---no response from the EU/US

2. the Vostok Chechen Bn which is inherently part of the Russian FSB/GRU, is Chechen which means Russian had a total of over 70 killed with the first 34 dead bodies going back to Russia today---still no response by Merkel/EU/US-----check the link below

http://inforesist.org/43-corpses-of-...to-18/?lang=en

3. the use of Russian serial numbered MANPADs and anti armor missiles, the use of the Russian AK105s only issued to Russian GRU/SF----and again still no response by Merkel/US/EU

4. the Russian Border Guard Service is "allowing" a steady flow of Russian irregulars and weapons enter into the Ukraine almost daily---STILL no response from Merkel/Obama and company---check this link

http://inforesist.org/80-militants-a...ation/?lang=en

After all of these "none responses" after stating there would be responses leds one to believe WHAT?

No response will ever be coming and it was all "talk".

After all can Merkel in fact jump over her FDJ/SED/Russian speaking past to deal with a former "Communist KGB COL" who was based in Dresden and handled the recruitment of agents in the West and who had recruited a number of "GDR citizens who were proSoviet" for a possible KGB GDR coup because they felt Honecker was getting to "moderate" in 1989/90. Even Honecker and Mielke mistrusted Putin and the Dresden KGB center.

Notice she has been extremely quiet since the 25th.

[Steve Blair]

Since folks seem to be making some less than optimal decisions here, I'm closing this thread for the time being. We will reopen it once we feel there's been enough time for folks to cool down. I'm doing this in preference to handing out infractions, but that's my individual choice. For now.

[davidbfpo]

After a review by the Moderators this thread has been unlocked to enable SWC members to return to the discussion on this continuing crisis.

This thread has had to be locked before, with disciplinary action taken when SWC rules were breached several times and was locked a few days ago to enable a cooling down period. A number of posts have - again - been deleted and others edited to remove references to the breaches.

As Kaur has stated (on the Info Ops thread) and is cited now (in part):

Moderators, I don't understand why you closed the "Ukraine" thread. There is going on war that should be covered by this site. Am I wrong?

The Moderators repeat we are here to ensure SWC continues to be a useful place for members and readers. The RoE are clear. We are a "broad church" of opinions and viewpoints.

[mirhond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPNyfruTJEw#t=104

Separatists from Lugansk seized a border guard outpost. Good move to secure supply line from Russia.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/03/wo...iref=allsearch

Airstrike kills 8 civilians in Lugansk. Mundane stuff of the civil wars, but I'am amazed that even CNN admit it.

[Dayuhan]

Replace "Ukrainians" with %nationname%, "Russians" with "Americans" and this statement become even more close to the truth.

Absolutely. If Canada and Mexico don't get nukes soon the US is bound to annex British Columbia and Sonora. Or maybe not...

[Dayuhan]

There's a bit of sense in this...

http://time.com/139128/this-isnt-a-c...essarily-good/

This Isn’t A Cold War. And That’s Not Necessarily Good

Four key reasons why the Ukraine crisis doesn't fit that description--and why that means the situation will deteriorate...

[JMA]

Absolutely. If Canada and Mexico don't get nukes soon the US is bound to annex British Columbia and Sonora. Or maybe not...

Steve, do try maintain an adult intellectual level please. Your example is plainly ridiculous.

[JMA]

Replace "Ukrainians" with %nationname%, "Russians" with "Americans" and this statement become even more close to the truth.

As you like but the truth is that the US has never been a physical threat to its neighbors or anyone near on the scale as Germany and Russia were and Russia still is.

The Russian problem - to be truthful- was the result of leftist/communist inspired support of the Soviets from within the Roosevelt administration at the time. It took the US under Truman too long to counter Soviet influence... the rest is history.

If one studies the Russian mentality one will realize that it will take a nuclear deterrent - that will be used in time of need - to put the Russians back in their cage... and out of the non-Russian states that currently fall within the Russian Federation.

The Russians - correctly - are banking on the fact that neither the US nor any in Europe are prepared to act decisively to counter their expansionism.

[OUTLAW 09]

As you like but the truth is that the US has never been a physical threat to its neighbors or anyone near on the scale as Germany and Russia were and Russia still is.

The Russian problem - to be truthful- was the result of leftist/communist inspired support of the Soviets from within the Roosevelt administration at the time. It took the US under Truman too long to counter Soviet influence... the rest is history.

If one studies the Russian mentality one will realize that it will take a nuclear deterrent - that will be used in time of need - to put the Russians back in their cage... and out of the non-Russian states that currently fall within the Russian Federation.

The Russians - correctly - are banking on the fact that neither the US nor any in Europe are prepared to act decisively to counter their expansionism.

JMA---you are as correct as ever and many commenters in this thread and on the other threads have truly failed to understand the Soviet expansionism of Putin's Russia.

I remember only a couple of days before the elections the West ie EU/NATO/US indicated they would pull the trigger on harder sanctions if Putin interfered with the election---well he did and but was done-nothing because he uttered a few moderate comments and pesto all was well in the West.

If one fully understands the new Russian doctrine of New Generation Warfare which is really a national level UW strategy tied to irregular warfare which JMA fully understands supporting a political war again something JMA fully understands then one will recognize with this article from today backed up by the video link on the cell phone photos from a dead Chechen fighter and kaur's recent link to 22 May events that the "war" is now over in the Donbas region.

Would not call the dead Chechen a "weekend warrior" or better the new term "war tourist"---he is plain and simple a paramilitary full time member of a Russian "radical nationalist" irregular fighting group whose leader is a fanatical supporter of Putin and who has close ties to the FSB/GRU.

AND what is the response from the West with the "none meddling" by Russia in both the election and now in the support for Chechens inside Donbas?

Nothing is the answer.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...sk-350001.html

Still curious that mirhond who is quick to respond to comments failed to respond to the dead Chechen's cell photos especially the logo of his Chechen unit. Check the logo of his Chechen unit, check the quality of the Russian plated 4X4s in the garage and quality of arms and equipment-and tell me he is a "weekend warrior".

http://obozrevatel.com/crime/58036-c...to-i-video.htm

If mirhond would honestly answer directed questions to himself which he never does but why would he---would enjoy seeing his definition of "Russian fascism".

Better yet---mirhond here is an easy to read English article concerning "Russian fascism"--do you agree with it or disagree with it---maybe you could simply answer in a yes or no fashion as you definitely will not respond to the article--even to a yes or no question.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...te/427504.html

mirhond---here is another easy to read English article on Russian "fascism".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadom...ussia-fascist/

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---did I miss you not responding to the dead Chechen fighters cell phone photos---check the Chechen BN logo.

Although based on his commanders' comments he has sent no one to fight in the Ukraine---although it seems like 34 dead Chechens were sent to Russia today and they are admitting there are another 30 or so dead Chechens not recovered near the airport so about 70 got killed.

But hey mirhond there are no Russians fighting and dying in eastern Ukraine are there---Putin has stated that it is not Russians who are fighting in the Ukraine so I am not sure just where these "war tourists" are coming from or do you know---maybe Right Sector soldiers looking and speaking like Chechens?

Check the shot down Russia drone link---and there is no Russian involvement in the Ukraine?

By the way Germany and Russia were once linked via their lines of royalty of their kings---you are not prosing that Putin is a king are you and Merkel a Queen?

[mirhond]

http://www.dw.de/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%...%B8/a-17673335

Retired German general offered to send NATO-Russia peacekeepers to Eastern Ukraine. Sounds like good idea.