Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[davidbfpo]

Other than the descriptions of life on the beaches , I can think of little reason to even go to The Ukraine.

I would differ. I've had two excellent holidays there, once in Western Ukraine, centred on Lviv / Lvov (an old Polish city, with pre-1914 architecture) and then the Crimea - where Sevastapol is all new build since WW2. Loads of history, much of it grim alas; friendly people and good food in privately owned places. Yes, the lack of hot water in a hotel can happen.

davidbfpo

[Beelzebubalicious]

Stan had the unfortunate luck to visit Ukraine in the 90s when things were a bit hairier and a little less friendly. I tried to get him to come visit when I was there, even tried to entice him with the opportunity to blow things up, but he held his ground. Then again, if you're going to take a vacation, I wouldn't go to Ukraine, either. In fact, when I had the chance, I left Ukraine. It has a lot to offer, as you mentioned Mr. bfpo, but for the cost and hassle, there are a lot of other better choices.

[Jedburgh]

EDM, 8 Sep 08: Crisis in Ukraine

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko is ready to call an early parliamentary election as his party, Our Ukraine – People’s Self-Defense (NUNS), withdrew from a coalition with Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko’s Bloc (BYT). According to Ukrainian laws, NUNS has time until September 13 to change its mind; otherwise, either a new coalition will emerge or Ukraine will see a third parliamentary poll in four years. Russia, self-confident after the events in Georgia, may play some role also in Ukraine as both Tymoshenko and her possible ally in a new coalition, Party of Regions (PRU) leader Viktor Yanukovych, have apparently been seeking Moscow’s support.

The crisis in Ukraine has both domestic and international roots. On the one hand, both Yanukovych and Tymoshenko rejected Yushchenko’s condemnation of Russian behavior in Georgia. This prompted Yushchenko to accuse them of betraying the country’s national interests. On the other hand, rivalry between Yushchenko, who wants to run for a second term in 2010 but is weakened by constitutional reform and low popularity, and Tymoshenko, who views her tenure as prime minister as a springboard to presidency, has reached its climax.....

[jmm99]

but ...my last accusation is bigger than your prior accusation - and I have the prosecutor's ear.

Then:

Ukraine's PM accuses president of self-interest
REUTERS
Reuters North American News Service
Sep 06, 2008 09:05 EST
KIEV, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Ukraine's Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko accused President Viktor Yushchenko on Saturday of putting his political ambitions before the national interest, adding to the bad blood between the former allies. .....

http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=332954

and two days later:

Ukraine president Viktor Yushchenko accuses PM Yulia Tymoshenko of treason
Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko has accused Yulia Tymoshenko, the Prime Minister, of high treason amid a bitter political struggle over whether the country's future lies with the West or with Russia.
By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels
Last Updated: 8:06PM BST 08 Sep 2008
Miss Tymoshenko has revealed that she has been summoned by prosecutors to answer the president's charge of treason as Ukraine's two rulers battle it out for power ahead of a 2010 presidential vote over their country's future direction. ....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...f-treason.html

May have to reference my old Soviet law books on the conduct of "state trials".

[jmm99]

Here is one view of US policy and the Ukraine. Draw your own conclusions.

No Dog in This Fight
by Doug Bandow
09.09.2008
Washington has become an ugly place. Eight years of bitter Republican attacks on Bill and Hillary Clinton have been followed by eight years of bitter Democratic attacks on George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. But this venom cannot compare to the tidal wave of political hatred that has recently overwhelmed Ukraine’s capital of Kiev.....
....
Doug Bandow is the Robert A. Taft Fellow at the American Conservative Defense Alliance. He is a former Special Assistant to President Ronald Reagan and the author of several books, including Foreign Follies: America’s New Global Empire (Xulon).

http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=19810

See also DB's wiki bio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Bandow

[Ron Humphrey]

but ...my last accusation is bigger than your prior accusation - and I have the prosecutor's ear.

Then:



http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=332954

and two days later:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...f-treason.html

May have to reference my old Soviet law books on the conduct of "state trials".

One would imagine there would be two different types of legal precedence under which the PM could be tried that which would have existed under Soviet rule or a western type approach

Wonder which one PM would prefer?

Conundrums,conundrums

[jmm99]

The old Soviet law was based on the continental European Code systems (e.g., French, German and Italian systems are the usual grist for study in a Comparative Law course). There were some Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist additions - to carry out the aims of the "dictatorship of the proletariat".

That being said, the basic sustantive and procedural law was not that much different from what one finds in Germany. While somewhat different from the UK and US "common law" systems (which are filled with statutes and codes anyway), Russian law then (and probably now - I haven't kept up with the Russian and Ukrainian codes) was not that bad - in ordinary cases.

In fact, in ordinary criminal cases, it sometimes could give better results than our system. Besides the prosecutor and defense lawyers (who were not always competent), the Russians had an independent legal office that reviewed the case in all aspects for errors by lawyers and judges. Many cases we read resulted in reversals of decisions because of that office.

But, all such bets were off in a political case. If you were a political defendant, you were screwed - the only question was how much of a show would be produced. In all of the Great Purge Trials, the form of due process was observed, though the results were pre-ordained. Of course, those summarily executed in the Lubyanka cellers were spared that show. I suspect (but do not really know) that the old pattern may still prevail as to political trials (e.g., the fall of the oligarchs).

So, as to Ms. Tymoshenko's options, it really wouldn't matter what legal procedures were used if the cards were stacked as they used to be in the good, old days.

PS: Chinese law was even wilder - going from the Manchu system (based on the continental European Code systems in large part) to the Mao-based ChiCom system - a real innovative piece of work.

[Beelzebubalicious]

In my opinion, it's fairly pointless to talk about legal systems, traditions and such. They don't really matter in Ukraine. Ukraine uses the old Soviet law, which was basically designed to be contradictory and opaque so that the people with the power could protect their own interests and punish others. That's the tradition Ukraine inherited and works with today. It's presented to the world as if there's rule of law, but behind the scenes, it's anything but.

Each party will try to defend themselves or attack the other using whatever tactics they can and will wrap it up with a legal justification. Last time a constitutional change was put forward, it was debated in the Constitutional Commission (forgot exact name) and there was a behind the scense free for all buying or coercing of votes. It will be the same this time.

I agree with Bandow that the USG does not understand politics and reality in Ukraine very well, should not act hastily (for sure) but I don't think the USG can afford to sit on the sidelines. Russia isn't, that's for sure. USG, with European partners, needs to continue to push reform. I think many people understand that Russia, despite it's current economic strength and show of military force, is buried in the past and that the future for Ukraine lies in the West. In terms of safety and short term interests (and maximizing individual benefit as a result), the focus is on Russia, however. It's a long term fight.