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Thread: Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

  1. #1361
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    AmericanPride, wouldn't it be more easy to handle Eastern Ukraine problems without Russian special services guys acting as provocators? I speculate that without Taliban it would be easier to promote peaceful solutions in Afganistan. Isn't easier to solve problems without spoilers?
    Yeah - probably. But is it realistic to expect that?

    EDIT: Also, I'm willing to bet that the Kremlin's masters are thinking something similar: wouldn't it be easier to maintain Ukraine's allegience without American money and political interference acting as spoilers?
    Last edited by AmericanPride; 05-01-2014 at 10:55 PM.
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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Meanwhile, the counter-Maiden in eastern Ukraine continues to escalate as the authority of Kiev collapses. From New York Times, quoting the (unelected) President in Kiev:

    What has Kiev done to ensure the loyalty of its security officers? Probably not as much as Moscow has done in trying to subvert them. And as I've mentioned previously, the austerity program will continue unabated and without regard for the political consequences:

    It's easy to blame Moscow for the complete failure in political strategy, and to suggest that there's an SVR/GRU boogeyman behind every unhelpful event, but the truth of the matter is that the Kiev administration has done nothing whatsoever to rebuild its legitimacy in the eastern regions and with ethnic Russians. The anti-Kiev sentiment is strong, and the organization and resources (allegedly) provided by Moscow does nothing to help matters. But this is an eastern mirror of the Maiden events in Kiev that ousted Yanukovych, and like Yanukovych, the Kiev administration has been careless in providing opportunities for its opposition to exploit.
    The current Kiev government has only been around a short time so they are outmatched by an organized military assault by Russia (sans unit patches of course). That isn't really an excuse because results matter right now. However results do matter in the long run too. We'll see how the Ivans do if they keep moving into Ukraine. The Ukrainians have a tradition of insurgency which matters in small war.

    I don't know how strong the anti-Kiev sentiment is. Maybe, but most of the reports I read seem to indicate the people involved are Russian spec ops, drunks, Russian riot tourists and thugs. The latest XX Committee blog entry has a story about how the streets in the affected towns are empty except for the people I mentioned above. The Roma are gone because they were chased out.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    And of course, in desperation with the failure of the regular army and the national guard units to actually secure the eastern territories by force, Kiev introduces conscription (which was originally abolished by Yanukovych):

    From BBC:

    It appears that Kiev administration's political position is increasingly untenable.
    I find it completely unremarkable that a country under attack institutes conscription. The Kiev administrations military position seems to be very bad and maybe getting worse. Political position? That is a longer run thing. We'll see.
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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Yeah - probably. But is it realistic to expect that?

    EDIT: Also, I'm willing to bet that the Kremlin's masters are thinking something similar: wouldn't it be easier to maintain Ukraine's allegience without American money and political interference acting as spoilers?
    Heck yea it's realistic to expect Russki spec ops types not to be there. You oppose them and force them out. There are many ways. They range from shooting them dead or putting a lot of pressure, actual real live that really hurts pressure, on Vlad the would be Great to withdraw them. But it requires action.

    Yea you're right the Kremlin masters are probably thinking that. They probably thought the same thing about Western support for pesky Polish shipyard workers in the old days.
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    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Yea you're right the Kremlin masters are probably thinking that. They probably thought the same thing about Western support for pesky Polish shipyard workers in the old days.
    And that's the point. The morality of it is irrelevant. As you said, "results matter". And the result thus far has been continued Russian success, Ukrainian instability, and Western posturing. I don't think Moscow wants escalation any more than Washington does, insofar that escalation increases the chances of a decision point between credibility and costly intervention. The low-level agitation works in Moscow's favor and it'll be interesting to see how it shapes the elections - assuming they're going to be held. What we should be doing is attempting to mitigate any further losses rather than reversing Russia's gains.
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    Council Member mirhond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    mirhond, thank you for forcing me to think

    — Если отталкиваться от типа населенных пунктов, то где поддержка Путина выше, а где ниже?

    http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2014/0..._5948629.shtml

    AmericanPride, wouldn't it be more easy to handle Eastern Ukraine problems without Russian special services guys acting as provocators? I speculate that without Taliban it would be easier to promote peaceful solutions in Afganistan. Isn't easier to solve problems without spoilers?
    1. Again, approval does not mean support.
    2.
    чем дольше на территории была советская власть, тем больше люди придерживаются советских патерналистских взглядов. Чем дальше на запад Украины, тем свободнее люди.
    That's a message from West Ukraine to East - you are all soviet scum, while we are the paragons of freedom. So, why you still surprised that Kievan junta political sentiments arn't popular in the East? You can't handle the fact that these people don't like to be called bad names? Bad for you, then, your ignorance remain untouched.
    3. I speculate that the world without poverty, illiteracy, inequality, opression, armies and organised religions would be much better - will my speculations help the reality?
    Last edited by mirhond; 05-02-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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    Council Member wm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    wm---you still have not mentioned where you where during the very last 1989 Reforger exercise ---were you at least in an European based Army unit that participated---a yes or no will do and yes I do know the plans very well from 1989 as I was tasked to fulfill them both operationally as well as tactically and yourself? And then differently from you I had to exercise the Soviet doctrine against the opord.

    See when you mentioned every plan you have seen was frago'ed then you are way past the 1989 timeframe in active service and in those years all plans were submitted as opords in 1989 as they Army then adhered strictly to MDMP not as they do now and simply frago everything that walks and talks and acts like a plan---AFG in some units was up into the 300/400 series ranged frago numbers---come on wm--served there as well.

    Quit sidestepping that every plan does not survive first contact---the wartime contingency planning for Europe was drilled at every Reforger exercise (in addition to surprises thrown in to mimic opordx adaptions on the fly) if you had participated in them which you have not so I am not sure why you assume you are in fact correwct and you challenge other's veracity who actually participated in them.

    Come on wm you really do not believe units such as the 2/3ACR or 11ACR could have "won" against the Soviet Ground Forces Germany Tank Divisons who had already the T80s in 1985/86 in large numbers---even the Abrams in Europe initially had the 105mm gun not the 120mm which came into theater later in larger numbers. The ACRs only had the Bradley's and a bunch of 113s come on.

    If you have participated in the last Reforger from 1989 then we can talk and exchange experiences on long the 141 rides over the Atlantic we both had just to get to Germany.

    Again when you speak of SDAMs and the other related weapons--speak from experience as I have been trained on the darn thing and deployed with it out a C130 all based on an USEOM opord not a frago have you? Then we can converse and exchange experiences.

    Until then continue thinking USECOM was "winning" as this conversation is going nowhere.

    WM---by twhe way just to refresh your knowledge of Soviet Army units based in just the GDR as of 1989 not counting their back up units in Poland---in 1989 we had only a max of 270K and it was a lot of combat support mixed in. A majority of these units were deactivated after 1994 when they pulled out of the then GDR after reunification.

    By the way count the number of actual Soviet Divisions (yes they are smaller than ours) inside the GDR and then tell me just how many Divisions we had along with NATO on the ground physically located inside Germany and you wonder why we worried every time there was a troop rotation on their side as the size actually doubled as units came in and units went out and often overlapped for several weeks increasing the actual number of Soviet troops on the ground by a factor of 2.


    Soviet 1st Guards Tank Army (HQ Dresden) · 8th Guards Mechanised Corps, the 11th Guards Tank Corps
    2nd Guards Tank Army (HQ Fürstenberg) · Soviet 1st Mechanized Corps, 9th Tank Corps, 12th Guard Tank Corps
    4th Guards Tank Army (HQ Eberswalde) · 5th Guards Mechanised Corps, 6th Guards Mechanised Corps ; 10th Guards Tank Corps
    2nd Shock Army (HQ Schwerin) · 109th Rifle Corps (46th, 90th, 372nd Rifle Divisions), 116th Rifle Corps (86th, 321st, 326th Rifle Division) 40th Guards Rifle Corps
    3rd Shock Army (HQ Stendal) · 7th Rifle Corps (146th, 265th, 364th Rifle Divisions) ; 12th Guard Rifle Corps (23rd Guards, 52nd Guards, 33rd Rifle Divisions); 79th Rifle Corps (150th, 171st, 207th Rifle Divisions) 9th Tank Corps
    5th Shock Army (HQ Berlin) · 9th Rifle Corps (248th, 301st Rifle Divisions); 26th Guard Rifle Corps (89th Guards, 94th Guards, 266th Rifle Divisions); 32nd Rifle Corps (60th Guards, 295th, 416th Rifle Divisions); 230th Rifle Division; three independent tank brigades
    8th Guards Army (HQ Nohra) 4th Guards Rifle Corps (35th, 47th, 57th Guard Rifle Divisions) · 28th Guard Rifle Corps (39th, 79th, 88th Guard Rifle Division) · 29th Guard Rifle Corps (27th, 74th, 82nd Guard Rifle Divisions) · 11th Tank Corps
    47th Army (HQ Halle) · 77th Rifle Corps (185th, 260th, 328th Rifle Division) · 125th Rifle Corps (60th, 76th, 175th Rifle Divisions) · 129th Rifle Corps (82nd, 132nd, 143rd Rifle Divisions) · 1st Guards Tank Corps and the 25th Tank Corps.
    Outlaw,
    This is my last post to try to correct your distortions. Where I was in 1989 is no more germane than having Mirhond show you an identity card ( BTW, Don't bother asking for one from me.)

    Had you really read the Wikipedia article from which you plagiarized the GSFG OB list, you would have noticed your list was the 1945 organization. Scrolling a little further in that article you would have seen the later (1980s). Your first tip that something was amiss in the list you posted was the inclusion of corps HQS in your posted OB.

    Can we stop cluttering this thread with fantasies about how WW III in 20th Century Europe might have played out? I, for one, am done doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wm View Post
    Outlaw,
    This is my last post to try to correct your distortions. Where I was in 1989 is no more germane than having Mirhond show you an identity card ( BTW, Don't bother asking for one from me.)

    Had you really read the Wikipedia article from which you plagiarized the GSFG OB list, you would have noticed your list was the 1945 organization. Scrolling a little further in that article you would have seen the later (1980s). Your first tip that something was amiss in the list you posted was the inclusion of corps HQS in your posted OB.

    Can we stop cluttering this thread with fantasies about how WW III in 20th Century Europe might have played out? I, for one, am done doing so.
    wm---giving the impression of actually understanding Germany/USECOM War Plan/Soviet forces and claiming "winning" is in fact playing the WW3 card.

    That is unless you were actually physically in Europe and on the ground in 1989 which you were not so any comments on what was being exercised in 1989 from you are what correct or wrong?

    By the way for your professional development search SWJ for an article on the critique of the Army's use of FRAGOs' vs OPORDs---it is enlightening as some of us have been complaining about this since 2006 as it especially applies to Bde Staff operations.

    Check my comments on it---that might enlighten you as well.

    Some of us know our subject matter and debating tidits here or there that are off or wrong or not correctly footnoted and or referenced is what 11th grade?

    Maybe that is the reason JMA checked out of this conversation days ago.

    Actually the thread could have closed down with the advent of the KGB/GSB mis/disinformation blogger who is online and providing his/her work back to the KGB/FSB for pay as well as profiles on every writer on this thread as well as individual email addresses which then leads onto FaceBook account holders and Twitter accounts.

    And by the way the individual who did not provide his/her ID regardless of what you think is in fact a known entity working several other sites as well. The individual has helped in understanding the TTPs currently in use.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 05-02-2014 at 12:30 PM.

  8. #1368
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Mirhond:

    Two questions because I'm curious.

    What is Mr. Putin's salary? What is his net worth?
    Last edited by carl; 05-02-2014 at 04:16 PM.
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    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    And that's the point. The morality of it is irrelevant. As you said, "results matter". And the result thus far has been continued Russian success, Ukrainian instability, and Western posturing. I don't think Moscow wants escalation any more than Washington does, insofar that escalation increases the chances of a decision point between credibility and costly intervention. The low-level agitation works in Moscow's favor and it'll be interesting to see how it shapes the elections - assuming they're going to be held. What we should be doing is attempting to mitigate any further losses rather than reversing Russia's gains.
    You say "...we should be doing...". That is the key and effectively we are doing nothing right now. Mitigate, reversing, prevent, defending-we can figure that out but none of it can be done unless we get to doing.
    Last edited by carl; 05-02-2014 at 04:41 PM.
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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    I take the freedom to dump a text from my blog here, since it relates to the topic. The properly formatted version is here.

    Putin's approach to aggressions is an interesting one. It appears he
    has recognised the limitations of his freedom of action, found and began to
    exploit loopholes.

    An all-out conventional invasion, 1914-style, is apparently out of question to
    him. Russia lacks the forces to pull this off on a grand scale, at least without
    exposing itself too much.
    His exploits appear to range up to army corps size instead (South Ossetia
    2008) - with all other power being held in the back, as a political equivalent
    to a "fleet in being". This restricts the freedom of action of other great
    powers. Small powers can probably not pull off the same risky games for they
    lack this component - even if they could easily muster forces equivalent to
    the ones employed actively.

    Traditional Cold War deterrence rested on the fear that a too bold move
    might lead to World War III, and the demise of European civilisation. There
    were no aggressive moves done in Europe proper after the Berlin blockade;
    both blocs were content with keeping their own line*. Bold moves were
    largely restricted to Asia, with proxies and at times small numbers of
    opposing great power troops fighting against each other**.

    There as a fear that some bold, yet incremental, moves could be dared in
    Europe - and it was difficult to define when exactly such incremental
    offenses should lead to mobilisation or war. A British satire (a "Yes, Prime
    Minister!" episode, see 7:04 minutes and after) explained this better than
    articles or books ever did. Also remember the metaphor of boiling frogs.


    Putin appears to have thought of this incremental approach when he decided
    to send paramilitary troops without national insignias into the Crimea.


    He did apparently also take into account that the Ukraine is not allied with
    any country.


    Finally, the third ingredient; international law had been stretched somewhat
    prior to the move.


    Putin did stretch his freedom of action in face of International Law
    proponents prior to the conflict with Georgia in 2008 by exposing
    'peacekeeper' troops. Georgia proceeded to attack South Ossetia at some
    point and this included firing on peacekeepers. At that point Putin had a
    semi-plausible excuse for intervention. His intervention was not as blatant as
    the intervention of Kuwait 1990, for example. Him withdrawing after fait
    accompli avoided troubles as well.


    The stretching of International Law for the invasion(s) of the Ukraine wasn't
    done by Putin himself. This damage was done by Western great powers which
    had a fit of arrogance and short-sightedly decided that rule of force suits
    them better than rule of law. Rule of law was supposedly a concept to be
    applied on other powers only.

    Except that the "other powers" includes some great powers which evidently
    can behave arrogantly as well.

    2014-02 Hypocrisy in effect

    It would help if the same Western great powers reaffirmed the importance of
    international law in a non-hypocritical way. They could admit guilt, seek and
    accept a ruling about compensations and - most importantly - refrain from
    further violations.

    This won't happen, of course.Only losing aggressors have to show regret in
    this world.

    Another approach to close the loopholes would be to expand the collective
    defence systems; offer an alliance of some kind to the Ukraine. This is most
    unlikely as well. It would lead to further conflict and might end up being
    much too expensive. The Ukraine is not too big to fail, after all. Nothing in
    there is really crucial to the West (for historical reasons), while much in there
    is crucial to Russia.

    Finally, one could tune up the reaction to incremental moves and effectively
    turn incremental moves into too big moves thereby. This appears to be the
    preferred approach among Western great power governments.

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    Fuchs, without describing Putin's motives (and ideologue) carrying out his actions, your post is not so good. Do you agree with this column?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...3.html#ref=rss

    What paramilitary troops? There were conventional Russian troops in Crimea. Even Putin admitted this month later.

    Putin appears to have thought of this incremental approach when he decided to send paramilitary troops without national insignias into the Crimea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    I take the freedom to dump a text from my blog here, since it relates to the topic. The properly formatted version is here.
    fuchs---would have rewritten the article focusing on the concept of Russia using a strategic UW strategy in the conducting of a political war against both the Ukraine and the West (the West as his Duma speech indicated is viewed as being a "liberal democracy" and "western capitalism" as pushed by the US/IMF). By the way both qualities found in the EU which is also a Putin concern.

    Then I would focus on the current five legs of a Russian stool that is in fact the current Russia political society/animal 1) the security services, 2) the military, 3) the oligarchs, 4) Russian mob/gangs and 5) the Russian Orthodox Church and the seat of the stool being in fact a new Russian ideology --"ethnic nationalism". Especially focusing on the interplay between each of the groups and Putin's foreign policies.

    This new ideology "ethnic nationalism" is being driven by the following spokesperson Alexandra Dugin who pushes what he calls the "New Euroasianism" and/or "Nationalbolshevism" that is tied into the Russian nationalist groups who are in turn tied into European wide Nationalist groups who in turn have extensive media outlets supporting them ie what one sees currently in use in Russia airing proUkrainian videos and radio interviews.

    This new ideology if one reads the Duma speech--- Putin inherently wants to lead globally.

    Putin's' use of a strategic UW strategy is in fact being carried out by all five elements just mentioned.

    This strategy is just not a rehash of version 2 of the Cold War but something new and needs to be fully understood by all players in the West as they is currently not a single counter UW strategy seen anywhere out there.

    It is a strategy that can be turned on and off at his will anywhere on the borders to Russia proper as well as the ME ie Syria and he can sustain it virtually forever unless a counter UW strategy is found in a hurry and we fully understand in the West the term "political warfare".
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 05-03-2014 at 10:50 AM.

  13. #1373
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    I was aiming at the core, not trying to write a comprehensive analysis of Europe's security situation or of Russia. And I don't think the reference to a poorly defined concept ("UW") helps in pointing out the novelty in there.
    I was NOT satisfied with merely calling it "UW"; I wanted to show what I think is the core of the matter.

    And that is core of the matter is that he has identified and is exploiting gaps in the European security architecture.

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    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    WaPo's version of the OOB - interesting about the UA 25th Airborne Brigade.
    http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/pag...ne-border/996/
    Last edited by AdamG; 05-03-2014 at 02:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    You can write "UW" as often as you want, but buzzwords bring nothing to the table.

    I am a European and there's at least one huge gap in the European security architecture which was meant to not allow war to slip into Europe.
    This is a big deal to us.


    Look at it from the long-term angle; the Ukraine crisis isn't only about itself, but it's like a computer which got disabled by malware. We ought to scramble to fix the vulnerability to protect other computers.
    To save the disabled computer should be secondary to the community.


    And sorry, but I don't see anything interesting in what you call Putin's "political warfare". I've seen too much of it in history books. It's normal.

    The problem in the Ukraine is that he's staying below a certain threshold, and he does so because the threshold is high for a great power. This is essentially what GWB did to Iraq as well (getting away with an aggression without overt hostile intervention), except that his threshold was much higher due to the alliance situation, so his gang was much more brazen.


    We need to lower the thresholds and make sure potential aggressors understand about the lowered level, so they don't mess up by misunderstanding them.
    See fuchs---here is the difference between you the European and myself the American having lived say in Germany since say 1967 and understanding the European better than themselves.

    What Europeans got in 1989 was the ability to disarm their militaries and to drive down their defense budgets to a level that was "comfortable" meaning militaries were now "cheap" compared to say 1985. Yes some participated in AFG, but again it was not a great investment and in the mean time they continued the disarmament---take Germany and the cutting of their armored brigades last year.

    Then the European companies went on a spending and investing binge in Russia as it "appeared" to be the great next business market and they did in fact make great money in their investments and still do today so hey who wants to rock the boat and besides Europeans thought that if one invests a lot in another country then that country would not want to cause a war which seems to have not been true now.

    So what is the European answer currently towards Putin---what is the lower threshold you are going to set---what not continue buying his gas.

    Putin would really respect Europeans if in fact they placed sanctions on Russia that in fact hurt European businesses as well as that would show him Europeans are willing to sacrifice their money for an ideal---that ain't about to happen believe me,

    What you think is a buzz word is exactly what is allowing Putin to stay under a specific level and do not think for a moment that what is being practiced by the "separatists" ie proRussian armed groups is nothing more or less that outright UW at the tactical level.

    UW as a strategy gives a country the ability in political warfare to scale up and scale down their responses depending on what the Ukrainians do as well as what the Europeans do.

    By the way the term political warfare fell out of use over 30 or so years ago and has not been discussed much since then.

    But hey continue believing that buzz words do not count and continue believing that what you are seeing is not UW which seems to be the European way.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 05-03-2014 at 09:16 PM.

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    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    * "para-" or not is irrelevant. Neither was legal.
    * The supposed "cadre" thing never really worked. Wherever there are supposed examples of success (such as in Indochina) the success rested on indigenous unrest which was merely channelled. It was obvious that some Russians living in the Ukraine would fall for USSR nostalgia. This didn't require extra input.
    The "cadre" thing didn't work because otherwise no foreign troops would have been necessary. I remember how desperately some Russians were looking for people in the Eastern Ukraine finally stepping up against "fascism" etc. during the Majdan thing. Very little happened, and was probably FSB-driven. The insurrection thing isn't really indigenous either. Whatever support the FSB built up, Putin was clearly not as satisfied by it as were Westerners about the Majdan thing.

    * Europe did not "disarm".
    * European companies didn't really go into a spending spree in Russia. Direct and other investments were quite modest. More importantly, it wasn't done "then", after the peace dividend began. Foreign direct investments (from rest of world) in Russia only took off when the increased energy prices improved the Russian trade balance as well as after deregulation by 2006. It dropped sharply after 2008.
    see chart page 15
    They can hardly have made much money in these a few years.
    * It's not about whether Putin "respects Europeans". It's about whether he sees freedom of action or not. The personalising view on foreign policy ('I looked into his soul' stuff) is mostly bollocks on a continent that's rigged so fast as is Europe.
    * The United States trade almost entirely across two oceans; their ports are universal interfaces to world trade.
    Europe has more meaningful land connections to no less than three continents.
    It also has worked its way out of seemingly perpetual intra-European conflict by seeking more cooperation, and that era of conflict is still in (some's) living memory.
    It's typical American to think that cutting off some miscreants is a fine punishment. But to Europeans this means to cut off something meaningful. Confrontation instead of cooperation also risks a return of a pattern of hot conflicts.

    Few Europeans seem to be interested in getting caught in a real, European-style, war over the stupid borders of a multi-ethnic state with which their own country isn't allied.
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    Fuchs, I was used to your good habit to call things with their right names and your attempts to go to the roots of problems. Now you have twice rejected my comments, that there were Russian toops in Crimea (even Putin admitted this), you still have word "paramilitary" in your blog, I just don't understand you.

    About cadre. Crimea case is best case study, which shows worst case scenario. This took place in favourable circumstances. In less favourable circumstances this cadre acts just like spoiler among allies in EU and NATO. There are several scenarious between those I named. I just don't understand why some European countries underestimate Russians. Today we see that Russians can act very efficently. In January Barroso and van Rompuy told Putin "Mind your own business" and told him about Ukraine's independent choice. Today Europe is happy that OSCE observers are freed in Slavyansk by FSB guy. How can you say that Putin is happy or unhappy? Do you know what makes him happy? It would be really intersting to hear.

  18. #1378
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    Fuchs, I was used to your good habit to call things with their right names and your attempts to go to the roots of problems. Now you have twice rejected my comments, that there were Russian toops in Crimea (even Putin admitted this), you still have word "paramilitary" in your blog, I just don't understand you.

    About cadre. Crimea case is best case study, which shows worst case scenario. This took place in favourable circumstances. In less favourable circumstances this cadre acts just like spoiler among allies in EU and NATO. There are several scenarious between those I named. I just don't understand why some European countries underestimate Russians. Today we see that Russians can act very efficently. In January Barroso and van Rompuy told Putin "Mind your own business" and told him about Ukraine's independent choice. Today Europe is happy that OSCE observers are freed in Slavyansk by FSB guy. How can you say that Putin is happy or unhappy? Do you know what makes him happy? It would be really intersting to hear.
    Oh, you meant the blog.
    Well, again - I don't see much of a difference between paramilitary and military. Neither was legally allowed to be there, so I'm not downplaying anything. I wonder why you see much of a difference between a military man with an AK-74 and a paramilitary man with an AK-74. The difference is especially marginal in Russia with its USSR traditions. The KGB operated a coast guard that included anti-submarine and air defence systems, after all. Warsaw Pact 'worker militias' were always meant to be auxiliary military forces in the event of war.
    German paramilitary Cold War border guards were by defined as becoming combatants in the event of war.
    There's really not that much difference between military and paramilitary.

    And frankly, I'm not inclined to look up unreliable sources only to see whether the one or the other word is more accurate.
    _________

    The Slawjansk hostage episode was a show for the media. I doubt that the foreign politicians were stupid enough to fall for it and spend much time and effort on it.

    What's going to be interesting is what the Ukrainians do once they have FSB guys captured. We might see some old school "confession"-style videos which could be very dangerous to Putin's racket and I think he might be very concerned about this.
    I noted that the reports about the fighting in that town mentioned that the town was encircled. I wonder whether the encirclement is tight enough to really use it as a trap for the FSB personnel. They will likely not fight to the last man, after all.


    I suppose right now it's about time to offer Putin a face-saving way out. He's already at his culminating point.
    Let him build some more on his Crimea success (for Crimea is gone for good anyway), give him some political victory (such as Svoboda kicked out of government, something which the EU should like to see as well) and then he gets to write off the continental Ukraine.

    Then in the next years the West can demand concessions from Putin for not inviting the Ukraine into NATO (but merely equipping its army). Such as a satisfactory (to us) solution to the Abchasia and South Ossetia conflicts, ratification for the border treaty with Estonia, withdrawal of Russian troops from Transnistria, no S-300s for Iran and no arms exports to the Caucasus that could fuel a new war over Berg-Karabach.
    The best about this is that the threat of inviting them could be held up indefinitely. It's a self-regenerating bargaining chip.

  19. #1379
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with kaur. I'm all for a diplomatic solution the big question is how to achieve it. For over two months Putin got plenty of time, tiny sanctions and mostly very diplomatic language to exit the conflict in internal triumph. Instead he continues to fan the flames of war in Ukraine. Looks like the unopposed occupation of Ukrainian territory went all too smoothly with the Ukrainians behaving all too nicely. Harsher economic sanctions as a sign of strenght seem so far sadly be the better path to 'de-escalate' the conflict in which Putin has factually escalated and escalated.

    Overall it is of course much easier to start a bloody conflict then to end it. Even Putin should now that.
    Last edited by Firn; 05-04-2014 at 08:32 AM.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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    @Firn

    My take was and still is:

    1) Russsia needs the Krim for military reasons.

    2) Russia needs some parts of the Ukraine for military and economic reasons.

    3) The western Ukraine was a glacis for Russia.

    3) Russia faced the problem that they may lose all this to a combination of (stupid) western political actions and soft power (EU).

    Result: We saw already the occupation of the Krim and IMHO we will see the occupation of parts of eastern Ukraine in the future.

    OTOH Despite the nice Russian performance, I have problems to sell this as real Russian strategic success, Putin had to choose between pest and cholera. He had to invest to maintain the status quo, that is a loss when the opponent had to invest much less.

    And to sell Putin as extremly gifted strategist ignores the basic fact, that Russia was not able to control her backyard in the last years and will be unable to provide something that has a chance against the eroding soft power of the EU. Putin is good in his field (ex-KGB), but he stinks when we are talking about the creation of stable and competitive society. Good fever curve is the emmigration of well educated Russians, I bet it will will continue.

    On "our" side we were reminded as Fuchs put is, that we have some ugly gaps in our strategic set up which may here and there lead to a small version of August 1914.

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