Results 1 to 20 of 1935

Thread: Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Middle Atlantic States
    Posts
    8

    Default Ukrainian campaign in East Ukraine - Fascinating

    There have been few detailed descriptions in Western publications of the campaign by the Ukrainian Army to expel the Russian inspired separatists from East Ukraine. What first started in mid-April 2014 as a low level insurgency led by Russian GRU spetsnaz operatives that was centered in an urban bastion named Sloviansk, has since transformed into essentially a conventional war between 30,000 attacking Ukrainians against 10,000 defending Russians in an area 9,000 square miles in size, which encompasses numerous cities, one of them a one million plus metropolis - the City of Donetsk. From what I have been able to extrapolate from sketchy press releases from the Ukrainian armed forces and the more detailed but yet unverified situation reports from the Russian commanders, the Ukrainians, while tactically unsophisticated, have acquired enough combat experience to mount what, by all accounts is a rather elegant and nuanced campaign. The Ukrainians have initiated simultaneous battalion sized armored maneuvers on multiple fronts to spread out the defenders. The operation has also revealed attempts to control tempo and timing of sequential attacks. The Ukrainians also sent a brigade-sized mechanized column in a daring (and perhaps ill advised) flanking maneuver to try to seal off the Russian border. These troops are now trapped against the border for over two weeks but are still dug in and resupplied by parachute drop. (The Ukrainian Chief of the General Staff, General Muzychko, has decided to ignore the pleas of these troops for a relief offensive and has shifted reserves elsewhere) The Russians have proved to be the better infantry commanders (all are veterans of the Chechen Wars, Bosnia and Georgia) and have orchestrated a daring maneuver themselves when 1500 escaped from encirclement in Sloviansk at the very last moment. However, Ukrainian armor and artillery crews have gradually acquired competence and have buttressed their unreliable mech infantry with volunteer battalions, which make up for their lack of training with enthusiasm. (The mech infantry is comprised of recruits, while the specialists are contract soldiers) Throughout, the separatists have utilized state-of-the art MANPADS, with which they have downed some 10 attack helicopters and 6 attack warplanes. Despite the heavy losses, the small and outdated Ukrainian air force continues to fly 10-15 close air support sorties daily, with noticeable effect. Moreover, the Russians have used Kornet and Konkurs anti-tank missiles against Ukrainian tanks (upgraded old T-64s). The separatists have also acquired close to 100 T-64 and T-72 tanks themselves, with generous numbers of artillery and rockets, all smuggled over the border from Russia. As we all know, recently they even acquired BUK anti-air systems, with tragic results to passengers of Malaysian Airlines. Casualties so far amount to approximately 1,500 to 2,000 KIA and wounded on each side. As always, the big killer in the steppe is massed artillery. In fact, the Russians have fired artillery support from across the border. As of today, July 25, 2014, the Ukrainians appear to have turned the flank of a strong redoubt in Horlivka (which opens the way towards Donetsk from the north) and are close to seizing an important road junction at Debaltsevo, along a key supply line. All of these names would have been familiar to WWII era Red Army and Wehrmacht commanders, as bloody battles were fought to seize and to hold these locations in the Great Patriotic War. If Russia does not intervene directly or injects substantial irregular reinforcements soon (at least 5,000), the Ukrainians may have their first ever victorious campaign against Russia in history. (They won a few small battles in 1919 but never a war) One of the ironies of this entire struggle is that the people of Donetsk now realize that Putin never intended to liberate them and, to the contrary, has ruined their region economically for years to come. Ukraine looks like a better option and many are starting to see Kyiv as the lesser of two evils. Putin's adventures in Crimea and Donetsk have led to unintended consequences; (1) a Ukraine unified for the first time in its history, regardless of language (many of the Ukrainian fighters speak Russian; the orders in the Ukrainian army at the tactical level are issued in Russian);(2) the growth of national myths forged in a war with Russia that may develop into a true Ukrainian nationalism (and a break from Russia once and for all) and (3) disenchantment with Putin among nationalist voters in Russia proper (most of the blue collar population) which may threaten his hold on political power at the next election. There is some talk of Igor Strelkov, the Russian field commander in Donetsk, as a viable alternate candidate (unless Putin has him killed at the front). In any case, this war holds valuable lessons regarding the effectiveness of MANPADS against tactical air as well as the dynamics of a conventional war where neither side has air superiority. It offers a conflict involving urban warfare as well as broad mechanized maneuver and where artillery is still the king of battle.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    Thanks Shchors, interesting perspective.

  3. #3
    Council Member mirhond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shchors View Post
    separatists have also acquired close to 100 T-64 and T-72 tanks themselves, with generous numbers of artillery and rockets, all smuggled over the border from Russia.
    if this document
    isn't a fake, your statement is far from truth

    in short: Ukrarmy lost dosens of combat vehicles and other military pieces to separatists

    Quote Originally Posted by Shchors View Post
    (1) a Ukraine unified for the first time in its history, regardless of language (many of the Ukrainian fighters speak Russian; the orders in the Ukrainian army at the tactical level are issued in Russian);(2) the growth of national myths forged in a war with Russia that may develop into a true Ukrainian nationalism (and a break from Russia once and for all)
    I believe you just did'nt bothered to read Wikipedia article about Ukraine, that's why your post shows lack of historical knowledge.
    In short: Ukraine once already was an independent state, for a short time after Russian revolution. Ukrainian exclusive nationalism has a long and glorious story.

    зы. К чему эта маскировка под невежду, товарищ Щорс, вы же украинский коммунист и прекрасно знаете историю своей Родины, а так же всю ту хуиту, что происходит сейчас на Юго-Востоке
    Last edited by mirhond; 07-27-2014 at 10:27 AM.
    Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.

  4. #4
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    [QUOTE=mirhond;159172]if this document
    isn't a fake, your statement is far from truth

    in short: Ukrarmy lost dosens of combat vehicles and other military pieces to separatists



    I believe you just did'nt bothered to read Wikipedia article about Ukraine, that's why your post shows lack of historical knowledge.
    In short: Ukraine once already was an independent state, for a short time after Russian revolution. Ukrainian exclusive nationalism has a long and glorious story.


    So comrade non knowing expert mirhond---just what about those T64s that you once claimed here in SWJ were stolen from the Ukrainians which turned out to be registered to the Russian Army complete with former Russian military base numbers that somehow made it across that from Putin lied about "enhanced security border" that the famous FSB knows nothing about.

    come on comrade mirhond get with the progam.

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Middle Atlantic States
    Posts
    8

    Default Reply to Mirhond

    You just attached a report from the military judge advocate in the Dnipropetrovsk military district regarding ongoing investigations into instances of Ukrainian armor falling into the hands of the Russian separatists on the territory of Ukraine (there is the suspicion that certain military personnel at arms depots allowed these losses without a fight) I agree that these pieces of equipment fall well short of 100. But what does that have to do with Russian armor sneaking across the border into the Donbas? Video evidence of such incursions are multiple and overwhelming. I fail to see your point. And why should I read anything in Wikepedia? By the way, thanks for attaching this document. If authentic, it is a valuable source for future citation.

  6. #6
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    This is the 16th version released by the Russians today by RIA as they attempt to side track the accusations that the Russian mercenaries shot down the airliner.

    Appears now that the US supports the Russia released version that it was the Ukrainians. Not sure how the Russians some how think the US indirectly admitted it--but again it was that unnamed Russian Defense Ministry guy.

    Information was released to day by the black box analysis team---the plane was hit by a missile explosion that went completely through the aircraft.

    MOSCOW, July 27 (RIA Novosti) – The United States has indirectly admitted that Kiev’s air defense systems were present near Donetsk when the Malaysia Airlines plane crashed, thus confirming the data of Russian satellites, a senior source in the Russian Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti on Sunday.

    "In his statement, the White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest implicitly acknowledged that Ukraine’s air defense systems had been present in the Donetsk area, although he claimed they had not been operating," the source said, commenting on Earnest’s words that the missile that hit the flight MH17 was launched from the area controlled by the militia.

    The source stressed that the United States thus confirmed the authenticity of the data, provided by the images from Russian satellites at a special briefing of the Russian Defense Ministry on July 21. It was stated during that briefing that Ukraine’s air defense forces had four Buk-M1 missile systems near the city of Donetsk.

  7. #7
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    "Turn left at Greenland." - Ringo Starr
    Posts
    965

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
    So Dayuhan---just what does this statement say from the highest thinker in the US military? It tends to support the concept of the new Russian military doctrine does it not with it's use in supporting political warfare.
    My question is why (1) why did it take this long to formulate a response and (2) if Russia is such a threat, why do 20-year old war plans need to be 'dusted off'? Why aren't there current plans already in place? As I see it, U.S. foreign policy towards Russia (and in general) is (still) reactionary equipped without foresight.

    Quote Originally Posted by firn
    What is a direction Russian intervention in your opinion? What isn't open-ended to this war, with the Crimea occupied by Russia and Russian men and Russian weapons reinforcing Russias shadow armies lead by Russian veterans with it's limited local support while the Russian army shells Ukrainian forces from Russia proper?
    I look at Crimea and eastern Ukraine as separate conflicts - not because the belligerents are different but because I think Russia's goals are different; hence the different strategy for Crimea (direct occupation) and eastern Ukraine (proxy insurgency). There's a continuum of commitment and intervention, with no interference on one end and formal, overt military operations on the other. Though it strains credulity in the West, Russia can still claim a measure of deniability and that gives them the political space to push for a negotiated settlement. Outright occupation would raise a lot of questions about the end-state and place a great burden upon Russia's credibility as a great power (and yes, I would argue Russia is a great power, ranked #3 after the U.S. and China).

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    AP--this has been a battle of values and will be going forward much as the Cold War was about the battle of ideologies. By the way the US is an hegemon---via it's global economic power just check the current set of sanctions against Russia.
    This isn't a battle about values. It's a battle about the future of a country that has for 20 years attempted to maintain a delicate balance between two competing power centers. Its economic crisis triggered a political one, sparking a security one. And no - the U.S. is not a hegemon, otherwise it would have imposed its interests in Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Ukraine. The U.S. is by far the world's most significant power, but it does not have the capabilities to impose its will on every single country or combination of countries. Those capabilities peaked in the 1990s and the Iraq War marked the start of relative decline.

    Quote Originally Posted by firn
    A considerable problem of the Kremlin is of course that propaganda intended for Russian consumption, which is far to wild and crazy for almost all Western audience, still reaches across borders. In the case of MH17 it certainly hit the national news in Italy and Germany. In short the strategy is clear but the execution difficult and sometimes sloppy.
    That'd be an interesting case study about blowback of information operations in the contemporary environment.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  8. #8
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    My question is why (1) why did it take this long to formulate a response and (2) if Russia is such a threat, why do 20-year old war plans need to be 'dusted off'? Why aren't there current plans already in place? As I see it, U.S. foreign policy towards Russia (and in general) is (still) reactionary equipped without foresight.



    I look at Crimea and eastern Ukraine as separate conflicts - not because the belligerents are different but because I think Russia's goals are different; hence the different strategy for Crimea (direct occupation) and eastern Ukraine (proxy insurgency). There's a continuum of commitment and intervention, with no interference on one end and formal, overt military operations on the other. Though it strains credulity in the West, Russia can still claim a measure of deniability and that gives them the political space to push for a negotiated settlement. Outright occupation would raise a lot of questions about the end-state and place a great burden upon Russia's credibility as a great power (and yes, I would argue Russia is a great power, ranked #3 after the U.S. and China).



    This isn't a battle about values. It's a battle about the future of a country that has for 20 years attempted to maintain a delicate balance between two competing power centers. Its economic crisis triggered a political one, sparking a security one. And no - the U.S. is not a hegemon, otherwise it would have imposed its interests in Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Ukraine. The U.S. is by far the world's most significant power, but it does not have the capabilities to impose its will on every single country or combination of countries. Those capabilities peaked in the 1990s and the Iraq War marked the start of relative decline.



    That'd be an interesting case study about blowback of information operations in the contemporary environment.
    AP---not to go leftist on you but you really do not think that the economic power wheeled by the US government is not hegemon in nature.

    Let's see what would foreign banks that have been hit by US fines for hundreds of millions of dollars for embargo violations say to your statements especially since they do not do business in the US--but in the end pay if they want to not be cut out of the USD clearing house process in NYC or to float loans in NYC.

    Ask all the major participants of WW1 who financed the war to include Russia?

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    My question is why (1) why did it take this long to formulate a response and (2) if Russia is such a threat, why do 20-year old war plans need to be 'dusted off'? Why aren't there current plans already in place? As I see it, U.S. foreign policy towards Russia (and in general) is (still) reactionary equipped without foresight.
    Its the gutless politicians...

    The US military may have many shortcomings but they will have workable contingencies for just about every scenario... world wide.

    Once the politicians have finished pulling everything apart and modifying it all the plan is guaranteed to be unworkable.

    That's your system... its broken.

  10. #10
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    David---moves make sense to me.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 457
    Last Post: 12-31-2015, 11:56 PM
  2. Replies: 4772
    Last Post: 06-14-2015, 04:41 PM
  3. Shot down over the Ukraine: MH17
    By JMA in forum Europe
    Replies: 253
    Last Post: 08-04-2014, 08:14 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •