Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[carl]

I just thought of something. Mirhond, you were active when things in Crimea were active. When things went quiet in Crimea, you went off line. Now you are back up. Does that mean things are going to get active somewhere?

[OUTLAW 09]

carl---you are right things are getting active again---this in from Interfax from today---exact same drill exact same process as in the Crimea and the Russian Army has not stood down as requested by the US/NATO/EU and especially in the last few days Germany.

The OCSE report is also not in yet which makes these demos suspect for the timing as there are indications that the OCSE is ruling there is no issues for Russians in the Ukraine.

Here is also the TASS PR link from today on the same event. http://en.itar-tass.com/world/726779

April 07, 2014 13:03 Donetsk administration barricaded with car tires

DONETSK. April 7 (Interfax) - About 1,000 people are still outside the building of the Donetsk regional state administration on Monday afternoon.

Barbed wire has been put around the entrance and a barricade of car tires erected as high as a human, an Interfax correspondent said.

A Russian flag is fluttering above the building, and masked protestors are on the entrance roof decorated with flags of the Donetsk region and of the Donetsk Republic organization.

Protestors ask through loudspeakers to bring in firewood, tires and food.

Many of the masked people are armed with baseball bats and rubber batons they took from law enforcement during the storming of the building.

The Russian anthem and songs by Russian rock-band "Lube" are played through loudspeakers just outside the building.

Ukrainian reporters are not allowed inside the administration building.

Traffic in the adjacent streets has been partly closed, side entrances to the building are protected by police.

A day earlier the administration building was occupied by people who demanded that the Donetsk regional council meet immediately for a decision to hold a referendum on joining Russia. They also promised to declare a "people's mandate" at 12 p.m. (2 p.m. Moscow time) on Monday, i.e. to "disband the regional council" and replace it with a "people's regional council" consisting of "representatives elected" from regional communities.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhind ---since you seemed to not like Putin being called an ethnic nationalist---thought you might like the definition since you want things scientific.

I think you will recognize Putin from this definition.

mirhond ---the German authors mentioned in the paragraph were also members of the German "Blut und Boden" movement in the mid to late 1880s in Germany that set the stage for the Nazi's---now here is the interesting link to Nazi's---Putin used the exact same "Blut und Boden" argumentation in his Duma speech so is Putin a "Nazi"?

Taken from Wikipedia:

Main article: Ethnic nationalism

See also: National mysticism and Nationalism and archaeology

Ethnic nationalism, or ethnonationalism,or ethnicism defines the nation in terms of ethnicity, which always includes some element of descent from previous generations - i.e. genophilia. It also includes ideas of a culture shared between members of the group and with their ancestors, and usually a shared language. Membership in the nation is hereditary. The state derives political legitimacy from its status as homeland of the ethnic group, and from its duty to protect the national group and facilitate its family and social life, as a group. Ideas of ethnicity are very old, but modern ethnic nationalism was heavily influenced by Johann Gottfried von Herder, who promoted the concept of the Volk, and Johann Gottlieb Fichte. Ethnic nationalism is now the dominant form, and is often simply referred to as "nationalism". Theorist Anthony D. Smith uses the term 'ethnic nationalism' for non-Western concepts of nationalism, as opposed to Western views of a nation defined by its geographical territory. The term "ethnonationalism" is generally used only in reference to nationalists who espouse an explicit ideology along these lines; "ethnic nationalism" is the more generic term, and used for nationalists who hold these beliefs in an informal, instinctive, or unsystematic way. The pejorative form of both is "ethnocentric nationalism" or "tribal nationalism," though "tribal nationalism" can have a non-pejorative meaning when discussing African, Native American, or other nationalisms that openly assert a tribal identity.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---in the spirit of keeping things "scientific" you might like this on "ideology" and if one follows this definition one just might accept Putin being an "ethnic nationalist".

For Willard A. Mullins, an ideology is composed of four basic characteristics:
1.it must have power over cognition
2.it must be capable of guiding one's evaluations;
3.it must provide guidance towards action;
4.and, as stated above, it must be logically coherent.

Mullins emphasizes that an ideology should be contrasted with the related (but different) issues of utopia and historical myth.

The German philosopher Christian Duncker called for a "critical reflection of the ideology concept" (2006). In his work, he strove to bring the concept of ideology into the foreground, as well as the closely connected concerns of epistemology and history. In this work, the term ideology is defined in terms of a system of presentations that explicitly or implicitly claim to absolute truth.

(Would think using ethnicity, language, and culture as defined by Putin as his absolute truth reflected in his Duma speech in order to annex territory of other countries fits nicely into the term ideology.---but you seem to have other meanings.)

Though the word "ideology" is most often found in political discourse, there are many different kinds of ideology: political, social, epistemological, ethical, etc.

[kaur]

Outlaw, I'm not specialist, but this graphic makes the picture worse to me. Their ideology is very complicated thing.

[mirhond]

@OUTLAW 09

If you are going to explore "nationalism" a little bit more, don't stop on wikipedia, read this:

1. Benedict Anderson. Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism. 1983
2. Ernest Gellner. Nations and Nationalism. 1983
3. Eric Hobsbawm. Nations and Nationalism Since 1780: programme, myth, reality. 1991

carl

When things went quiet in Crimea, you went off line. Now you are back up. Does that mean things are going to get active somewhere?

Preparations to conquer the world take time, MU-HA-HA-HA!!! \(0_0)/

I just get bored with you and waited for American Pride and Mike post something meaningful. They are may be the only two non-biased and really productive posters in this thread.

davidbfpo

I don't see how the word Anschluss itself could be harmful. Besides, after it, Germans claimed to have 97% popular support on plebiscite - almost exactly the same number we have in Crimea, that's why Anschluss is a really good term for what happened.

[mirhond]

Outlaw, you must read this text and you see how Putin plays with word Russkii. This is Putin's 2012 presidential election manifesto that covers ethinicity question.

http://www.ng.ru/politics/2012-01-23/1_national.html

Try to translate this. I would be very glad, if mirhond could help.

kaur, you want the whole translation posted here, or just a kind of review?

[JMA]

carl---you are right things are getting active again---this in from Interfax from today---exact same drill exact same process as in the Crimea and the Russian Army has not stood down as requested by the US/NATO/EU and especially in the last few days Germany.

Indeed!

Russia has tested the US/NATO/EU (over Crimea) and found them weak and indecisive.

Next move coming soon.

[kaur]

mirhond, that quote is enough. thanks.

[OUTLAW 09]

@OUTLAW 09

If you are going to explore "nationalism" a little bit more, don't stop on wikipedia, read this:

1. Benedict Anderson. Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism. 1983
2. Ernest Gellner. Nations and Nationalism. 1983
3. Eric Hobsbawm. Nations and Nationalism Since 1780: programme, myth, reality. 1991

carl



Preparations to conquer the world take time, MU-HA-HA-HA!!! \(0_0)/

I just get bored with you and waited for American Pride and Mike post something meaningful. They are may be the only two non-biased and really productive posters in this thread.

davidbfpo

I don't see how the word Anschluss itself could be harmful. Besides, after it, Germans claimed to have 97% popular support on plebiscite - almost exactly the same number we have in Crimea, that's why Anschluss is a really good term for what happened.

mirhond---you still have not answered the statement that Putin is in fact an ethnic nationalist as are many who support him as are yourself.

Secondly, you seem to avoid actually defining and using the word "nationalism" in the same sentence with the word Russia as you yourself argued there is not a word for it in Russian---would argue that there is a series of Russian word combinations that are but implicit and explicit in their use of the words--- Russian nationalism.

Thirdly, you seem to not fully understand what David implied with your use of the word Anschluss.

We can get of Wikipedia since you seem to be ready for scientific statements--try understanding and agreeing/disagreeing with these paragraphs to see if you in fact agree with the use of ethnicity---- then we can discuss further.

Otherwise just making comments and trying to impress really do not get you anywhere as for some strange reason while you critique you also fail to answer specific questions directed to you but I guess tap dancing is a form of academic excellence these days at wherever you study or not study.

By the way you avoided posting your offered ID---still waiting for it.

Distinctions between race and ethnicity tend
to focus on the following elements, singly or in
combination (as summarized by Banton 1983,
pp. 9–10, 104; Jenkins 1997, pp. 21–24, 74–75,
80–82; and Bonilla-Silva 1999, pp. 902–3): Race
is said to be involuntary, ethnicity voluntary;
race to be a matter of external categorization,
ethnicity of internal self-identification; race to
be based on differences of phenotype or nature,
ethnicity on differences of culture; race to be
rigid, ethnicity flexible; race to involve superand
subordinate, ethnicity coordinate groups;
race to arise from processes of exclusion, ethnicity
from processes of inclusion; race to have
grown out of the European colonial encounter
with the non-European world, ethnicity out of
the history of nation-state formation.

NOW that you understand and or maybe not understand the use of ethnicity- in fact Putin is an ethnic nationalist as you yourself are.

[OUTLAW 09]

david---a friend just came out of the Crimea this weekend and the following was observed and it corresponds to the various previous military equipment video/still photo links.

All initial military videos depicting unmarked equipment are now emplaced on the border to the Ukraine and is being seen nowhere else---equipment is highly modern and new and it belongs to the what is being called the professional army meaning---no draftees.

Equipment being depicted as Ukrainian being shipped out was in fact Russian military equipment for the "regular Army" (draft army) being shipped into the Crimea and had the common Russian military numbering systems and was comprised of older military equipment-ie T72Ms being the most modern tank being seen--these units were moving into former Ukrainian Crimea bases.

There was no apparent Ukrainian extra rail equipment coming in from the Ukraine---ie railroad flat cars being seen that were either loaded and or being loaded with Ukrainian military equipment headed back to the Ukraine. The only thing evidently going back are Ukrainian personnel rail cars to be used for shipping back Ukrainian military and their families starting around the 10th.

[davidbfpo]

Pro-Russian protesters who seized the regional government building in Donetsk, Ukraine, are reported to have declared a "people's republic". The activists in Donetsk called for Russia to send in "peacekeepers" to protect them from Kiev.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26919928

Needless to say the government of the Ukraine suspects this is the start.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhind---since you seem to think ethnic nationalism is not in the Russian language vocabulary then explain to me in English just what you think this Russian issued Interfax press release is in fact saying.

Then go back and tell us "what is being said between the lines" as a warning to the Ukraine.

Then tell me ethnicity is not being used in a nationalist manner to drive an imperialism reminiscent of the Czars.

oh by the way you did not get into a response on the use of nationalism and ideology which you seem to think nationalism is not especially when used in political discourse.

By the way still waiting to hear scientifically just why you think Putin is not an ethnic nationalist vs just "someone who lusts for power".

So answer the questions and do not tap dance.

April 07, 2014 16:37 Stability in Ukraine is impossible without heeding Russian-speaking people's opinion - Pushkov

mirhind---based on this Russian thought pattern you still have not answered my comment that Mexico should be defending Spanish speaking people in the Texas city San Antonio since a very large majority of the Spanish speakers are ethnically Mexican as well as culturally. Is this not what Putin spoke about in the Duma?

STRASBOURG. April 7 (Interfax) - There will be no stability in Ukraine until it begins heeding the opinion of the Russian-speaking population, Alexei Pushkov, the head of the Russian delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) and the head of the State Duma committee on international affairs, said.

"The situation in eastern Ukraine shows that stability will not be achieved in Ukraine without heeding the wishes of the people who live in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, primarily, Russian-speaking people," Pushkov told reporters on Monday, the day the spring session of PACE opened.

Pushkov said PACE is now beginning to understand that the situation in Ukraine is quite complex and "the current Kyiv administration has no control over the situation in the country."

"A delegation of the PACE presidential committee visited Ukraine two weeks ago. They visited Kyiv, Lviv and Donetsk and became convinced that the problem of Russians in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine really exists. It's a real problem and the people are really seriously unhappy there. They came to the conclusion that the Kyiv administration does not fully control the situation and the situation when there are military units that do not report to anyone and are illegal is not characteristic of a country that claims to be democratic at all," he said.

NOTE: mirhond---by the way that is not what was reported by this committee but I guess dis/misinformation is a great thing to use because what Interfax and TASS tell the truth?

Pushkov said he expects that most speeches made during the PACE spring session will be anti-Russian, but said that he is confident that some deputies will say that the situation in Ukraine is very complex and the Crimea crisis is a consequence of the collapse of the Ukrainian administration and the coup in Ukraine, not its cause.

[OUTLAW 09]

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26919928

Needless to say the government of the Ukraine suspects this is the start.

David--it was the same "peaekeepers "who first arrived in the Crimea when Putin claimed there was not a single Russian solider anywhere in the Crimea.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---still waiting for a response to the complaint that Putin is an ethnic nationalist as is in fact the majority of the Russian speaking population OR are there no ethnic nationalists in Russia?

The problem with being an ethnic nationalist is that it can be reflected also in the Russian language as being outright racist and it can be used to degrade other ethnic groups of people.

AND if you know your Russian history a large number of Jewish Pogroms started in Russia and later under Stalin.

By the way long before the Nazi's got into the business of eliminating the Jewish population.

You might find this portion of an article interesting as it goes to Russian ethnicity and it's impact on other "non-Russians".


The "us-them" dichotomy is particularly important for Russians with a strong ethnocentric or ethnonationalist orientation. For these people Russians are customarily evaluated as being very good or special, so good in fact that it is difficult to imagine them being bad, as in this little joke on anti-Semites:

"Let's go beat up some Jews!" "But what if they beat us?" "Why would they do a thing like that?"

On the other hand, non-Russians (for example, Jews, Ukrainians, Germans, Georgians, Americans, and Westerners generally) may be regarded with caution, fear, ambivalence, or outright hostility. This is in line with the observed tendency for individuals who place high value on their own ethnic group to be prejudiced against another group.

Even when ethnocentric Russians attribute certain bad qualities to themselves as an ethnic group, they are inclined to overlook these qualities and favor their own over the alien group.

This phenomenon is part of what Vladimir Soloviev - writing toward the end of the nineteenth century - meant by "national egoism." As anti-Semite Vasilii Rozanov wrote in 1913: "Maybe our people is bad, but it is ours, our own, and that decides everything [Mozhet byt', narod nash i plokh, no on - nash, nash narod, i eto reshaet vse]."

As I observed above, it is difficult to hate one's own teddy bear. But it is easy to hate someone else's. And even when ethnocentric Russians deny that they hate others, we should be suspicious. Ivan Aksakov, in one of his many polemics on "the Polish question," declares: "We do not feel the slightest hatred toward Poles." But earlier in the same piece Aksakov writes: ". . . it is impossible . . . to deal with the Poles, this unhappy, conceited, arrogant, frivolous tribe which in addition is permeated with Catholic-Jesuitical morals." Such was the standard attitude, by the way, of the so-called Slavophiles toward their non-Orthodox fellow-Slavs.

Hostility toward non-Russians can take many forms. Consider, for example, some of the derogatory ethnonyms which are available to the native speaker of Russian: armiashka, ashotik - Armenian. chernozhopyi - generic for Transcaucasian, Central Asian (literally "black-assed"). khokhol - Ukrainian. kosoglazyi, - generic Asian (cf. English "slant eye"). chuchmek - generic Asian. zhid, zhidovskaia morda - Jew (cf. English "Yid" or "Kike," "Yid Face"). amerikashka - American. kitaeza - Chinese.

These terms are all offensive, evoking an emotional - not merely cognitive - response in speakers of Russian who are acquainted with them.

They constitute the central building blocks of what in an American context would be called "hate speech." It is difficult for the native speaker of Russian to utter one of these terms (as opposed to a neutral equivalent) without actually feeling some hostility. Correspondingly, it is difficult for one who is addressed with such a term not to feel offended (unless possibly the speaker is a member of one's own ethnic group).

Some of the terms listed are known to all native speakers of Russian, others are less widespread.

SO come on mirhond---there is no ethnic nationalism in Russia?

[Fuchs]

The events in the East are an opportunity for the West to show how it's done right (as if we knew):

1. Call the OECD and UN for observers and support

2. Make sure residents are properly registered (there were some plebiscites about birder conflicts between Germany and Poland around 1919 in which plenty former residents returned tot eh area to vote). Nationality should not be relevant for the referendum, minimum age should be as for Ukrainian elections.

3. Define areas for vote (no gerrymandering by adding too much to a single vote area)

4. Vote with foreign observers (with translators and freedom of movement enforced by police) everywhere and on every step of the process.

5. Fair and transparent counting.

[davidbfpo]

A "#Donetsk separatist" who forgot to remove his #Russia'n Airborne Forces T-shirt... oops #fail.

Link:pic.twitter.com/qdUyUtdP2A

I am sure such T-shirts are widely available, but it makes you wonder.

The "separatists" repulsed at the TV station by the police:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoI_40kjikY

[carl]

David:

Those cars in the YouTube video all looked to my unpracticed eye to be new, like somebody went out and bought a bunch all at once.

[Stan]

I am sure such T-shirts are widely available, but it makes you wonder.

David,
I get the striped T-shirt thing... we have it here too.

But, the Nike tennis shoes and hospital mask

[carl]

From what I've gathered when Ivan moves into Ukraine proper Poland will act. They must act but not necessarily overtly. So I have questions for those in the know. How good is the Polish intel service? How good and how big are their unconventional warfare forces? Do they have any? Did they draw any useful lessons from their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do they have unconventional warfare doctrine and practice to fall back on? And anything else that might pertain.