Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[omarali50]

Fuchs, as Stalin would say "How many divisions does the UN have"...
Not that I have any clue what can be done and how.

[mirhond]

@kaur

Русский народ является государствообразующим – по факту существования России. Великая миссия русских – объединять, скреплять цивилизацию. Языком, культурой, «всемирной отзывчивостью», по определению Федора Достоевского, скреплять русских армян, русских азербайджанцев, русских немцев, русских татар. Скреплять в такой тип государства-цивилизации, где нет «нацменов», а принцип распознания «свой–чужой» определяется общей культурой и общими ценностями.
Такая цивилизационная идентичность основана на сохранении русской культурной доминанты, носителем которой выступают не только этнические русские, но и все носители такой идентичности независимо от национальности. Это тот культурный код, который подвергся в последние годы серьезным испытаниям, который пытались и пытаются взломать. И тем не менее он, безусловно, сохранился. Вместе с тем его надо питать, укреплять и беречь.

Russian people are backbone of the state just by the very fact of Russian state existence. Great mission of Russians is to unite civilization. As Dostoyevski said - unite Russian Armenians, Azeri, Germans, Tatats by the means of language, culture and ecumenic sympathy. Unite into such kind of civilization-state where is no ethnic person and “us-them” definition is based on shared culture and values.
Such civilizational identity rests on Russian culture as centerpiece, and Kulturtragers are not only ethnic Russians but anyone who has this identity regardless of ethnicity. This culture code in recent years had faced great challenges and hack attempts but preserved anyway. It need to be nourished and protected.

[AmericanPride]

I haven't been following the Ukraine issue in a few days, except to see in the news this morning (or last night?) about the protestors in Donestsk demanding a referendum on separation. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long. But perhaps Moscow had recently put the brakes on its influence agents out of concern for a potential political quagmire in eastern Ukraine - already the protestors are calling for Russian intervention. I think if Moscow really wanted eastern Ukraine, it would have moved on it when it occupied Crimea. How would Ukrainian repression of Russian separatists influence Moscow perceptions of its credibility? Russian law requires the government to defend its citizens (and yes, even if those 'citizens' were recently handed their visas in the last month).

This "rebalancing" of territorial boundaries in accordance with the dispersion of ethnicies isn't surprising in the context of the post-World War II momentum of political fragmentation; ~45 countries in 1945 (IIRC) to 193+. Where should Ukraine's borders be? Where the Soviet Union established them? Where Ukrainians actually live in the majority? Russia itself has a very long history as a multi-ethnic 'empire' so the fluidity of borders is probably more acceptable in the Russian perceptive than in the Western one. Russia contextual does not fit neatly into the Western system; and the West has not done a commendable job in trying to integrate it. And this is the result.

[carl]

American Pride:

Yea the Russian contextual of "What's mine is mine and what's yours is negotiable" has always been a little hard to integrate into the Western system.

[Stan]

Carl,
we called it cleptocracy in Zaire

Not that anyone finally figured it out either.

[OUTLAW 09]

Wow----now this Russian Foreign Ministry press release via Interfax---if you would have just talked with us in the Fall of 2013 none of this would have happened.

So now the follow on question has to be "OK we can now talk about the EU association agreements and include you Russia into the EU as this is what you need in order to truly development your country and oh by the way to join one must demonstrate a democratic separation of political powers and have an independent and fair judiciary and have free and open elections."

And now you will what leave the Crimea?

Just how stupid does the Russian FM think the rest of the world is---especially when in the Fall of 2013 Russia was adamant verbally against any EU association agreement?

One has to "admire" the ability to tap dance on five weddings.

Taken from Interfax today:
19:11
IF DIALOG BETWEEN EU, UKRAINE AND RUSSIA ON ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT CONSEQUENCES WAS HELD IN FALL 2013, CHAOS IN UKRAINE COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED - RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY

[Stan]

Wow----now this Russian Foreign Ministry press release via Interfax---if you would have just talked with us in the Fall of 2013 none of this would have happened.

Dude !
Link Please

[OUTLAW 09]

American Pride---the core problem with the Putin Doctrine is that in theory we could have Mexico claiming to "defend" the rights of all Spanish speaking individuals in San Antonio Texas based on ethnicity, language, and culture or for that matter San Diego or LA or Chicago or even NYC

Kidding aside---there are over 300 hot spots in the world where the Putin Doctrine (the redoing of existing territorial boundaries based on ethnicity, language and culture) can be applied to--- most of them in Africa and Asia--and at least 15 alone in Russia.

The issue of territorial boundaries goes back to the European imperialism days and that includes Russia as well and the results of Soviet boots on the ground after WW2.

Not so sure one needs to open Pandora's Box in order to redraw national boundaries.

[kaur]

mirhond, thanks! Bad thing is, like Outlaw explained, that российские is translated Russian (people of Russian state) and русские is translated Russian (Russian by nationality). How on earth can Putin say русских армян, русских азербайджанцев, русских немцев, русских татар?

For example try to find here expression "русских амян". Is assimilated Armenian called "русскии армян"?

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Армяне_в_России

[OUTLAW 09]

Dude !
Link Please

Stan

Sorry here it is----Interfax PRs only hold for the day and do not roll over so there is no specific link to a particular article unless the article is highlighted in blue text---this one was highlighted in red so one understands the critical nature of the released notice.

One can go back and read the individual releases that are normally in black ---but there is usually nothing in text on the black releases other than the headline quote.

http://www.interfax.com/news.asp

[OUTLAW 09]

Link:pic.twitter.com/qdUyUtdP2A

I am sure such T-shirts are widely available, but it makes you wonder.

The "separatists" repulsed at the TV station by the police:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoI_40kjikY

david---just a side note on the weapon being carried--do not think it is standard Ukrainian military issue as it is definitely Russian in origin.

The AK-103 assault rifle is a derivative of the AK-74M chambered for the 7.6239mm M43 round, similar to the older AKM. The AK-103 can be fitted with a variety of sights, including night vision and telescopic sights, plus a knife-bayonet or a grenade launcher. It uses plastic components whenever possible instead of wood or metal.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---happy to see that you in your own translation scientifically agree that there is in fact Russian ethnic nationalism which Putin is riding right now.

Although your translation left a double meaning out on three occasions, but I would have left them out as well as they actually support the concept of Russian ethnic nationalism. If directly translated.

What is far more interesting is that Putin using Russian ethnic nationalism in his Duma speech actually setup a new form of a "communism messaging" appealing to others in the world to follow him in implementing his new Doctrine of ethnicity, language and culture is redoing the old territorial boundaries. That is why Putin is dangerous.

Russian people are backbone of the state just by the very fact of Russian state existence. Great mission of Russians is to unite civilization. As Dostoyevski said - unite Russian Armenians, Azeri, Germans, Tatats by the means of language, culture and ecumenic sympathy. Unite into such kind of civilization-state where is no ethnic person and “us-them” definition is based on shared culture and values.
Such civilizational identity rests on Russian culture as centerpiece, and Kulturtragers are not only ethnic Russians but anyone who has this identity regardless of ethnicity. This culture code in recent years had faced great challenges and hack attempts but preserved anyway. It need to be nourished and protected.

[davidbfpo]

According to a BBC reporter in Donetsk the protest outside the SBU building / regional council (unclear if in same building) numbered a thousand, the 'hard core' only a hundred:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26918410

Or:

Reports from Donetsk suggest about 50 people broke away from about 2,000 demonstrators at a rally in the main square of the city.

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26915605

I note the declaration of self-determination was made by an unnamed man:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26929185

Sounds like a coup to me.

[Stan]

According to a BBC reporter in Donetsk the protest outside the SBU building / regional council (unclear if in same building) numbered a thousand, the 'hard core' only a hundred:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26918410

Or:

Link:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26915605

I note the declaration of self-determination was made by an unnamed man:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26929185

Sounds like a coup to me.

David,
The BBC this morning along with other wire feeds claim a "paid group of Russians" orchestrated what would have otherwise been a large but peaceful demonstration. We saw the very same here in 2007. A little cash, a lot of hard alcohol and we have the makings of a great riot

When ethnic bonds are no longer sufficient, break out the vodka !

[mirhond]

mirhond, thanks! Bad thing is, like Outlaw explained, that российские is translated Russian (people of Russian state) and русские is translated Russian (Russian by nationality). How on earth can Putin say русских армян, русских азербайджанцев, русских немцев, русских татар?

For example try to find here expression "русских амян". Is assimilated Armenian called "русскии армян"?

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Армяне_в_России

Well, it's your Anglo-Saxon problem that you can't scribe the difference on paper You have one word for two completely different things.
Morover, there is subtle difference between for example "русский армянин" which means Armenian long exposed to Russian language and culture and "российский армянин" which means just Armenian resident in Russia, who got his passport yesterday.
So, Armenians who suddenly become the subjects of Russian Empire in 19th century are obviously "российские армяне" and Armenians who are assimilated to the point of loosing their language and culture are "русские армяне", contemporary non-resident Armenian traders with dual citizenship - "российские армяне", contemporary Armenian residents with only Russian citizenship, language and loads of Russian habits - "русские армяне". There is no contradiction in Russian language, only in English.


@OUTLAW 09

happy to see that you in your own translation scientifically agree that there is in fact Russian ethnic nationalism which Putin is riding right now

No, it is not true.
ps. no links from you, as usual.. well, enjoy your wishful thinking, believe anything you want to be true.

[kaur]

Mirhond, thanks for explanation!

Outlaw, there must be special code like Putin said that makes you Russian. Mirhond can maybe elaborate this. This brings us to that diagram I posted.

Such civilizational identity rests on Russian culture as centerpiece, and Kulturtragers are not only ethnic Russians but anyone who has this identity regardless of ethnicity. This culture code in recent years had faced great challenges and hack attempts but preserved anyway. It need to be nourished and protected.

This seems to be work of spin doctors.

http://www.risingpowersinitiative.or...he-Kremlin.pdf

http://scilla.ru/works/knigi/nac2010.pdf

[Stan]

Hey Mirhond !

I don't need a translation lesson today

But, I was wondering how everyday Russian nationals feel about say ethnic Russians living in the Baltic States.

We also differentiate between Baltic Russians (not always a good reputation) and real Russians (generally a very neutral opinion as tourists).

The Baltic Russians feel they are not welcome in Russia, and the real Russians feel a distinct dislike for them abroad as tourists.

This is not just some nationalistic thing, but more a general feeling in the Baltic States about Russians. But, when I ask the question about people or government, we end up with a different view.

And, oddly enough, when a Baltic Russian goes to say Moscow for a vacation, he feels like he is being treated as a second class citizen. Kind of like a Belgian being insulted by a Frenchman for speaking poor French.

Half of what happens here seems to be a misunderstanding (lost in translation as with your post to Kaur), and worse yet, years of mistrust.

But, lately, there appears to be some heavy handed play at hand. If the confusion and unrest are insufficient to create a riot, then someone gets involved to make sure it appears as if Russians are in danger. Are they really in danger or just being scrutinized for remaining a minority in a country where they were born and raised ?

A bit confusing at least for me living here for more than 20 years. It's not just some language barrier here. Fine, you don't want to learn the local culture and language, but you wish to live here and not in Russia. But then why complain to Putin that you are being mistreated when you could simply return home ?

Your thoughts ?

[Stan]

Well, ministry of truth says that we must be gravely concerned about Russian non-citizens in Baltic states, but I personally don't give a fu(k. It's a common attitude here, I believe, especially when propaganda mashine is off duty.
If Baltic Russians don'd bother with learning state languages and demand privileges - well, thoose dumb####s deserve nothing but some law enforcement.
Why they won't go home? They know Russia is unwelcoming place for native Russians, not to mention anyone else

Thanks !

A good answer that most would not share.

[mirhond]

Ukrainian National Guard. Not the brightest guys, I suppose.

ps. @OUTLAW 09

just a side note on the weapon being carried--do not think it is standard Ukrainian military issue as it is definitely Russian in origin.
The AK-103 assault rifle is a derivative of the AK-74M chambered for the 7.6239mm M43 round, similar to the older AKM.

Bullshиt. Guys hold AKS-74,
or AK-74

supposedly looted from police station or security department.

picture of AK-103 for comparison

[Stan]

Being an instructor has its moments