Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[davidbfpo]

Ukrainian police and interior ministry special forces evicted protesters from the Kharkiv regional administration on Tuesday in a bloodless dawn raid, arresting about 70 people.

But by nightfall separatists still held the regional administration building in Donetsk and the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) building in Luhansk, both of which have been fortified with barricades.

Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ate-chaos.html

[davidbfpo]

Professor John Schindler has two excellent commentaries on current events on his invaluable blog site:http://20committee.com/

Yesterday 'Putinism and the Anti-WEIRD Coalition', ah what is WEIRD? In part:

I’ll elaborate what Putinism actually is, but before I do, it’s important to understand why President Obama and countless other Westerners cannot see what is right before them. Putin and the Kremlin actively parrot their propaganda, they are doing anything but hide it, yet we still cannot make it out.

This is simply because we are WEIRD. That’s social science shorthand for Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic – and nobody is WEIRDer than Americans. In the last several decades many Americans, and essentially all our elites, have internalized a worldview based on affluence, individualism, and secularism that makes us unique, globally speaking. So much so that we seem unable to comprehend that there actually are opposing viewpoints out there.

Link:http://20committee.com/2014/04/07/pu...ird-coalition/

Today he has an update on East Switzerland, a model country Transdniestria, officially the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic (PMR). OK get a map, I meant East Switzerland in jest.

The real comment is entitled 'After Crimea, is Transdniestria Next?':http://20committee.com/2014/04/08/af...dnistria-next/

[AmericanPride]

In Post 961 AmericanPride referred to, cited from a long passage:

This puzzles me. Are you referring to the countries with the USSR / Russian Empire? Or the wider membership of the Warsaw Pact?

Poland was not within the USSR, it was a Warsaw Pact member and IIRC its frontiers were endorsed, agreed whatever by the WW2 allies in the Yalta Agreement.

To Westerners and maybe others the 'satellite' countries in Eastern Europe may not have had independence by our standards, but history has ample examples of some not being guided from Moscow. Such as the decision by Hungary to allow East German tourists to exit for West Germany in 1989 is regarded by many as a critical event.

Yeah - that's my mix up. I meant the Russian Empire, hence the Poland reference.

[OUTLAW 09]

Some argue that our misunderstanding of Russia and of our relations is sufficient to seriously damage our national interests.

I am no academic and share only my personal views based on real experience, not often accepted elsewhere.

We blew it in Africa and we are blowing it now thinking we are smarter. We are not, and we are not on an even playing field. If there was ever a time we should be listening to the people who manged to understand and manipulate Putin, now would be a good time to do said.

I'm disappointed that some feel all of this is but a cultural misunderstanding.

You are however correct. We don't get it and the Russians are better at deception.

On 9 May, much like in all the former Soviet countries, the tiny group of former Soviet military - regardless of age and sex - will converge in some symbolic place and cause mayhem. It has happened every year and will continue, whether we understand it or not.

No secret formulas nor rocket scientists. I doubt even Abraham Maslow would have figured out what was going on.

If they don't get their act together soonest, we will no longer be having this conversation.... regardless of who got it right

Stan---this article on the lack of basic intel sharing goes to the heart on the lack of a strategy currently being shown by the WH/Obama.

They are just winging it in the hopes of not having to get a step one in the violence chain all the while claiming to support the Ukraine because I think they still do not internally accept that Ukraine is worth the risk to the US.

Obama has and will always shun direct confrontation with anyone or anything---he is what we called in the 60s basically a peacenik at heart.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...h-ukraine.html

[OUTLAW 09]

Professor John Schindler has two excellent commentaries on current events on his invaluable blog site:http://20committee.com/

Yesterday 'Putinism and the Anti-WEIRD Coalition', ah what is WEIRD? In part:

Link:http://20committee.com/2014/04/07/pu...ird-coalition/

Today he has an update on East Switzerland, a model country Transdniestria, officially the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic (PMR). OK get a map, I meant East Switzerland in jest.

The real comment is entitled 'After Crimea, is Transdniestria Next?':http://20committee.com/2014/04/08/af...dnistria-next/

David---agree fully with the author---but one more reason we do not get it is we in the West officially and publically gave up on the discussion of nationalism after the Wall and the national wars of liberation.

That is why I get pushing the press releases for both TASS and Interfax as they actually accurately even though in our eyes are say propaganda it reflects actually what Putin and Co. are thinking/saying/doing and more over the WHY.

When one does interrogation for a long number of years one tends to develop an ear for listening and understanding the intent of words as the words and their double meaning are what is important and I think this is what the good professor is really saying in a WEIRD way.

This goes as well for American Pride's comment on how to move Russia to the Westphalia Agreements of past centuries.

Russia is much like Islam actually more than they would agree with. Yes Putin is a Czarist doing land grabs and empire building but the Maidan "scared" him to his core being.

Why---much as in Islam Russia has not had it's "Westphalian" moment meaning it has to be challenged by the population such as the Arab Springs and the "color" revolts have done.

You can see in the Interfax PRs this fear being expressed and how Putin has changed the basic laws trying to inhibit anything similar to the Maidan occurring in Moscow---we tend to forget that awhile ago there were thousands in the streets against Putin.

Putin and his elite fully understand that the billions made on oil and gas have basically not improved the well being of the average Russian and at some point that will erupt as well as Russia has not developed industrially the way they should have with the billions---yes the oligarchs and the hipsters have made millions but the average Russian has seen nothing.

This is the same problem that we see in Islam---currently three different directions secular, salafistis and taktfiri are competing and until they have their "reformation" the internal/external competition will continue.

The same goes for Russia---until they have their own "color" revolt we will be seeing far more Ukraine's as Putin currently feels "motivated/supported" by the nationalism in the population.

AP is correct he must be moved to Westphalia but without a massive nudge by his own population this will not occur just as the Islamists need a "reformation".

[OUTLAW 09]

This article is a good indicator that many of the proRussian demonstrators are coming from outside the Ukraine.

Do not think a local would mistake a major building for being something else.

There were a number of reports stating that the Russian being spoken was not the same Russian spoken in the region, that vehicles without plates were delivering construction materials suddenly would appear and then drive away and on and on.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ll/497709.html

[kaur]

AmericanPride said:

The eastern European states that were formerly part of the Soviet Union, with the exception of Poland, never had formal independence prior to either the end of the USSR or the Russian Empire. So their current independence is not rooted in recognition of a long history of political independence but on the justification that nations (i.e. peoples) deserve states. And if we accept that each nation ought to have a state, then it follows that the state should contain the whole of the nation

I'm not in position to suggest you to study more history, but I do hope that this fact gives you motivation to dig deeper.

To this public pact of nonaggression was appended a secret protocol, also reached on August 23, 1939, which divided the whole of eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence. Poland east of the line formed by the Narew, Vistula, and San rivers would fall under the Soviet sphere of influence. The protocol also assigned Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland to the Soviet sphere of influence and, further, broached the subject of the separation of Bessarabia from Romania. A secret supplementary protocol (signed September 28, 1939) clarified the Lithuanian borders. The Polish-German border was also determined, and Bessarabia was assigned to the Soviet sphere of influence. In a third secret protocol (signed January 10, 1941, by Count Friedrich Werner von Schulenberg and Molotov), Germany renounced its claims to portions of Lithuania in return for Soviet payment of a sum agreed upon by the two countries.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...ggression-Pact

To continue the XXcommittee post, last October 1 Polish guy wrote nice paper about Putin's Europe.

http://www.osw.waw.pl/sites/default/...europe_net.pdf

"Ilyin and Putin" thing is for me little mystery. As far as I understand he was anti-Soviet emigree and KGB was hunting this kind of people. They were threat to communist regime. Now his thoughts are propmoted about former and present day siloviki. What is the logic? Putin and Co were members of unrooted underground movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_Operation ?

Dugin, Prohhanov, Kurginjan etc. those guys have existed during in the Russian indeological terrain for a long time. Why they were picked up from the toolbox this time? Here is Russia's youth movement's propaganda brochure from 2007. Even if you don't understand text, pictures will say a lot. Very aggressive message.

http://www.zaks.ru/pda/archive/view/54291/

It was year, when Putin was selecting successor. Next year milder Medvedev became president. Is this maskirovka like Schindler says?

[JMA]

carl---they in fact have a very good airborne unit we watched during the cold war days and they have a very good SF ability who has had extensive experience with NATO/US SF. And their officers are definitely not proRussian.

I suggest this matter is now beyond boots on the ground or parachutes in the air.

The US Administration should announce that if the government of Ukraine were to request the supply of tactical nuclear weapons they would look favourably on such a request.

The Russians seem to have the same mindset of Nazi Germany in the late 30's which needs to be countered with the promise that the cost of Russain expansionism will have a cost too great to bear.

This being step one.

[JMA]

Stan,

I have no understanding of the psyche of Russians in general and Putin in particular but to me the key to how to deal with Russia revolves around whether they - Putin and the Russian people - would be prepared to commit national (Russian) suicide in a nuclear conflagration if they are not able to expand their borders and subjugate the peoples so incorporated.

Years of weakness and foreign policy indecisiveness by the US and a massive error of judgement by the Germans has given Putin and the Russians the idea that they can do what they want without fear of any opposition beyond verbal wailing and sanctions alkin to a slap on the wrist.

You need a White House that can stare down the Russians now... which you don't have. The combination of Obama/Biden/Kerry/Rice/Hagel is probably the most inept and pathetic combination in the history of the US.

Once this situation has been diffused then one can take steps to make sure Russia will never have the means to mount such and exercise again. Their oil and gas power needs to be dismantled.

A great question with no Western answer.

We refuse to listen to people that have dealt with Vovo for years.
What's the big deal in admitting you have not a friggin clue and just spout BS via diplomatic channels as if you were somebody ?

Even the playing field and do as they do. That's the only thing they understand and the only way we can get by. Nobody wins BTW.

We better accept the fact that we will not win. Unless we want to entertain 2 million soldiers locked in a nuke war.

Only then, can a compromise be had.

[AmericanPride]

kaur,

To clarify, with the exception of Poland, all the states in question were a part of the Russian Empire and/or Soviet Union for the better part of their histories. And most of those countries, like Ukraine, only experienced independence in any form related to the current version of their state only in the 20th century. Sure, "states" (if loosely defined) existed in those territories for many hundreds of years, but they were not at all like the bureaucratic-based state model whatsoever, nor were they married with the current concept of 'nation'. That's not to see that the current states are not legitimate, but only that their legitimacy is not rooted in a long history of independence like say, France. So we, "the West", can demand respect for the territorial integrity of these states, but not on a historical basis, only a legal one, and as I've stated repeatedly in previous posts, Russia is neither, in my view, a state in the Western Westphalian conception, nor is it firmly integrated in the Western system to compel it to conform to those norms.

For Ukraine specifically, some might claim that the short-lived Ukrainian People's Republic is the predecessor to modern Ukraine, but that conveniently ignores the 72 years that Ukraine existed as a SSR, and the borders it currently has given it to by the USSR (after several changes during the course of its existence). So on what basis do we say that Ukraine's borders are inalienable? What the Russians have exploited to the detriment of the West, although the West really established this precedent post-Cold War, is the strengthening of self-determination at the expense of territorial integrity. Of course Russia has many problems of its own with its nationalities but like I've stated, Russia is an imperial state, not a Westphalian one, so that contradiction doesn't exist for the Kremlin. And that's because of the Russian tradition of statehood - first the rule by princes and overlords, then the expansion of the state over vast territories with vulnerable borders, and finally culminating in the Russian Federation. And all this time it was necessary for a centralized authority to mobilize the vast and distant resources of the country. Russia has a very different history - why should we expect it to have the same behavior and perspective as the West today?

Years of weakness and foreign policy indecisiveness by the US and a massive error of judgement by the Germans has given Putin and the Russians the idea that they can do what they want without fear of any opposition beyond verbal wailing and sanctions alkin to a slap on the wrist.

I disagree. US foreign policy towards Russia has been fairly aggressive, and Russian policy statements over the last decade or so has made that pretty clear; the two most divisive issues up to this point were NATO enlargement and missile defense. Russia is flush with confidence not because of American 'weakness' but because of renewed Russian strength. And that has to do with the context of the chaos of the Yeltsin years after many centuries of 'great power' status as the Empire and USSR. Russian policy makers believer that's the country's rightful place in the world, and they now believe Russia has the stability and power to restore it.

[OUTLAW 09]

This particular event is unsettling and I think it goes to the current flashes inside eastern Ukraine.

If one thinks about it Putin is in fact ready to invade into eastern and southern Ukraine and it might be as Stan suggests around the 7 May and or around his scheduled coming public TV appearance where he will be taking open line calls from the Crimea and the Ukraine or a combination of the two.

1. There have bee no further calls from Putin to either Merkel and or Obama.
2. NATO has fully signaled via open source newspaper articles to Moscow that they have imagery, sigint and humint reporting clearly identifying what units are where, strengths, and unit compositions and those troops are well within 30kms from the border and they have been watching them since early Feb 2014.
3. This is important as Merkel was told by Putin they would start a withdrawal which in fact has absolutely not occurred which indicates he was lying to Merkel---Obama has said withdraw as has NATO---still no movement--all Russia statements are we are not going in nor are we threatening
4. Then the sudden outbreak of proRussian demos starting occurring this week almost as an excuse for an invasion.

Little unknown fact---while the rest of NATO drew down their armored forces and destroyed large numbers of tanks and APCs due to OCSE agreements also singed by Russia---Russia is still not in OCSE compliance and has not been since 2004---meaning they basically did not disarm and destroy their allotted number of tanks and APCs---and they have in violation if the INF developed a ground launched cruise missile which is nuclear ready.

Once an Army goes into attack array formations it is ether use or lose or as we say in military slang "fish or cut bait" as the attack formations will get bored and lose their edge.

This article via Interfax is a telling comment concerning the Russian ignoring of the OCSE which in the past they tended to adhere to which is a serious warning indicator.

Notice they are still trying to argue unilateral actions in Kosovo give them "rights" to annex Crimea. Not once has Russia ever admitted that a Slavic country was butchering the population in Kosovo nor have they admitted they blocked countless Kosovo statements by the UN SC.

http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?pg=3&id=495751

April 09, 2014 16:03 Daily activities by Russian troops on their national territory pose no threat to U.S., OSCE countries - Russian Foreign Ministry (Part 2)


MOSCOW. April 9 (Interfax) - Russia is not conducting any unusual or unplanned military activities on its territory in the area of the Ukrainian border, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"The U.S. and Ukraine have no reasons for concerns. Russia has said many times that it is not conducting any unusual or unplanned activities significant in terms of military issues on its territory in the area of the Ukrainian border," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a commentary posted on its website.

"The daily activities by the Russian troops on its national territory do not threaten the security of the U.S. and other OSCE countries. The attempts to accuse Russia of beefing up its armed forces are groundless," the ministry said.

"Russia has refused to take part in the joint meeting of the Permanent Council and the OSCE Forum on Cooperation in the Sphere of Security called in Vienna on April 7 at the request of the U.S. and Ukraine in connection with their concerns about the activities by the Russian Armed Forces in the areas bordering on Ukraine," the document says. "We refused because there were no grounds for calling such a meeting and, consequently, to use the provisions of Chapter III of the Vienna Document on Confidence-Building and Security-Building Measures, which deal with the procedures for launching in the OSCE a mechanism of consultations on unusual military activities," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said the lack of unusual military activities by the Russian Armed Forces "was convincingly confirmed by the results of international inspections on the Vienna Document and observation flights under the Open Skies Treaty conducted in the Russian Federation in March."

"On those grounds, we earlier declined the U.S. request for a bilateral meeting as part of the said mechanism of consultations until we received from the U.S. objective data on the location of Russian troops in amounts exceeding the maximum levels of reported and observed military activities as per the provisions of the Vienna Document," the commentary says.

"Simultaneously, we point out the statements made by the U.S. and other NATO countries and the NATO secretary-general on the plans to increase the U.S. and NATO armed forces in Eastern Europe, the Baltic and the Black Sea regions under the pretext of the events in Ukraine. We sent questions directly to NATO about that. In that situation, Russia did not see any point in meeting the U.S. and Ukrainian delegations halfway because they had launched an anti-Russian campaign in the OSCE, and refused to participate in the joint meeting of the Permanent Council and the OSCE Forum on Cooperation in the Sphere of Security, which was convened at their initiative," then document says.

"In this regard, we cannot help but recall that the 'high standards' of the realization of the Vienna Document and, specifically, the mechanism of consultations on unusual military activities were demonstrated by the U.S. and its allies in NATO in 1999 during a military action against Yugoslavia without the authorization of the UN Security Council. The Republic of Belarus then did not receive the information it had requested, and some countries did not respond to requests at all. Moreover, this step was for some reason negatively taken by our Western partners, despite the fact that all actions taken by Belarus were fully in line with the Vienna Document," the commentary says.

"We are calling on the U.S. and other member countries to stop using the OSCE tribune for fuelling tensions around Ukraine and begin constructive work to resolve the current crisis in Ukraine, normalize the situation and conduct a comprehensive constitutional reform to form a stable democratic system, with regard for the lawful interests of residents of all regions of the country," the ministry said.

[OUTLAW 09]

Firn---might have been correct in a number of his economic comments as it looks like the CB is losing money at an alarming rate even for a supposedly rich oil/gas producing country.

The more Putin stirs the pot in the Ukraine the more the money flees the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2014/...ref=world&_r=0

[Stan]

Hey Mark,

I hate to screw up your nuclear party, but seems they have come to terms and we will not have another Chernobyl this month

I'm convinced Putin has a login herein and has read your posts

I would, at the very least be concerned.

Take care dude, Stan

Stan,

I have no understanding of the psyche of Russians in general and Putin in particular but to me the key to how to deal with Russia revolves around whether they - Putin and the Russian people - would be prepared to commit national (Russian) suicide in a nuclear conflagration if they are not able to expand their borders and subjugate the peoples so incorporated.

Years of weakness and foreign policy indecisiveness by the US and a massive error of judgement by the Germans has given Putin and the Russians the idea that they can do what they want without fear of any opposition beyond verbal wailing and sanctions alkin to a slap on the wrist.

You need a White House that can stare down the Russians now... which you don't have. The combination of Obama/Biden/Kerry/Rice/Hagel is probably the most inept and pathetic combination in the history of the US.

Once this situation has been diffused then one can take steps to make sure Russia will never have the means to mount such and exercise again. Their oil and gas power needs to be dismantled.

[Stan]

This particular event is unsettling and I think it goes to the current flashes inside eastern Ukraine.

If one thinks about it Putin is in fact ready to invade into eastern and southern Ukraine and it might be as Stan suggests around the 7 May and or around his scheduled coming public TV appearance where he will be taking open line calls from the Crimea and the Ukraine or a combination of the two.

Outlaw,
Seems for the moment things may be on a reverse course.

Even the Baltic Russians have openly stated that they do not require outside interference nor protection.

As 9 May closes, threats similar to every year mount.

Smoke and mirrors !

[OUTLAW 09]

Outlaw,
Seems for the moment things may be on a reverse course.

Even the Baltic Russians have openly stated that they do not require outside interference nor protection.

As 9 May closes, threats similar to every year mount.

Smoke and mirrors !

Stan----right now it is all about smoke and mirrors---Putin has to fish or cut bait and he will fish---the Russian economy is taking major hits as long as this drags out and economically he has to move. and am betting he then bunkers in for the long haul.

There is something inherently about the Ukraine that is driving him and maybe you probably understand it from your advantage point---in his core he truly believes the Ukraine is the birth place of Russia and the SU and he is not going to give that up.

What is interesting and maybe JMA has hit a nerve with some---there are indicators that the three letters are finally untracked after chasing jihadi's since 9/11 and having totally forgotten their tradecraft.

They are signaling via multiple routes they fully understand his moves and are moving now at a speed that even surprises me on a number of different fronts.

1. the three letters are going through the entire remains of the former president's records and are preparing via the Ukrainians corruption and state fraud charges for both inside the Ukraine as well as international and I am guessing they will release the records to cement a bad image in the international press for the Russians.
2. they have definitive evidence of Russian involvement in the current unrest in the east and south and have in a not to subtle way warned the Russians of the evidence
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...st-342744.html
3. NATO is signaling a closer rebuild of the Ukrainian Army and officers
4. Ukraine is making international court movements via Sweden in order to block any Gazprom moves---this parallels the German /EU court moves against Gazprom for illegal activity in the EU to the tune of tens of millions of dollars--the EU could hang a 10% fine calculated in their 2013 earnings and it could go even into 2014 earnings

But in the end it is a race against time and I think the US is anticipating Putin moving by the latest the middle of May which as you know begins the draftee phase of the Russian Army training cycle.

Some in the US are saying he will not invade while he just wants influence---but he already has influence so I am not sure why they are so sure.

Excellent example of how the FSB is screwing up their spying efforts---one has to love social media.

http://www.rferl.org/content/russian.../25327334.html

[OUTLAW 09]

That's a creative map, but it's also full of assumptions about how to create legitimized state borders. Are state boundaries legitimized through historical processes? Ethnic distribution? Geography? Law and mutual agreement? All of these would produce different boundaries for Eastern Europe. So really my interest is in asking what arrangement of borders would be the most conducive to peace and stability while also minimizing harm and injustice to the populations? I don't think the answer is in rebuilding the Russian Empire, but also I don't think there's any historical justification for inalienable borders either.

American Pride---you hit a stone wall with this statement.

"I don't think the answer is in rebuilding the Russian Empire, but also I don't think there's any historical justification for inalienable borders either."

In order to address European borders one would have to readdress the borders drawn over the last 200 years drawing into question Westphalia and in attempting to take into consideration all the various points you mention would keep a super computer at least five years in attempting to redraw a proposed set of borders.

That is why the Europeans are at unease with Putin's move---borders that were once assumed to be fixed in concrete since 1989 are being since Putin's move again questioned.

In say the Middle East which had boundaries drawn by the European colonial powers and the results of WW1 the super computer will have to take ten years to get just to a proposed map.

And this does not address the other 300 hot spots especially in Asia and Africa.

[OUTLAW 09]

Stan---this is the smoke and mirrors--the Russians keep going back to the 21st of Feb Maidan agreements even though they never signed them and I have wondered in a couple of times.

While they keep pressuring the US that they "really want diplomacy" they are still slowly moving their troops forward----last week there were indicators that the troops were 50kms from the border this week's media releases are showing now only 30kms.

This is the mirrors piece----

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...diplomacy.html

[kaur]

Outlaw, good that you mentioned 1989. For example today one of the outstanding ideologues is Kurginjan, who has all the time fought for СССР.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Kurginyan

Prohhanov fights for the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Prokhanov

Look at this really crazy event "Russian parents congress" that took place year ago. President Putin (saw the fall of Berlin wall) and his head of administration participated. Kurginjans last speech is fantastic!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uPDhHbGgdS8

[Stan]

Stan---this is the smoke and mirrors--the Russians keep going back to the 21st of Feb Maidan agreements even though they never signed them and I have wondered in a couple of times.

While they keep pressuring the US that they "really want diplomacy" they are still slowly moving their troops forward----last week there were indicators that the troops were 50kms from the border this week's media releases are showing now only 30kms.

This is the mirrors piece----

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...diplomacy.html

Outlaw,
Working this ass backwards with the last post first

You are for the most part correct. They talk diplomacy and move their chess pieces around. But, there's no hiding from a satellite now a days. Or is there ?

Things however have not worked out the way Vova wanted. He never expected a combined voice on his borders in the Baltic States. Too late.
He never counted on financial assistance to the Ukraine in the promised amounts. He also porked up the scenario by shutting off gas in the Spring when it is rarely needed.

I'm an EOD tech and senior instructor and very retired in my ways.

Exactly how many clicks from one's border equates to aggression? We have Russian military bases less than 2 clicks away, have constant instances of Russian military aircraft flying through our airspace, have constant instances of disturbances from Russian citizens purportedly caught in local grievances coincidentally during major and significant Russian holidays or other events, and the ever present rhetoric.

That said, what's the threat ?

They are about to have a round table with NATO, their local nationals are being arrested and sent back to the border, and all those gas freaks are no longer interested.

Regards, Stan

[omarali50]

since the great Russian soul has come up, here is an interesting piece from comrade John Reed: http://www.promacedonia.org/en/jr/jr_13.html