Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[mirhond]

So, I dare to say that this tank story from peacekeeper is nice example about Russian maskirovka and disinformation.

I don't get your point - Russians did this to hide what and disinform whom? Your elaborate reasoning disclosures nothing about that case. You still have no hard evidence that these three freshly demothballed T-64 came from Russia, not from the base in Artemovsk or weren't taken as trophies by separatists, as your links claim.

[kaur]

1. peacekeeper.ru starts spread the smoke in Russian information field, that оплчение got tanks from Ukrainian army.

2. peacekeeper.ru is project under Russian information policy officer

3. mission of information policy officer is to hide the real activities of his employer.

mirhond, I do understand that in Russia you can buy everything from shop. Putin said the same thing about green gentle guys in Crimea also. He admitted some time later that Russians were present. Will he admit it this time?

http://tvrain.ru/articles/putin_zago...borony-364386/

[mirhond]

1. peacekeeper.ru starts spread the smoke in Russian information field, that оплчение got tanks from Ukrainian army.

2. peacekeeper.ru is project under Russian information policy officer

3. mission of information policy officer is to hide the real activities of his employer.

mirhond, I do understand that in Russia you can buy everything from shop. Putin said the same thing about green gentle guys in Crimea also. He admitted some time later that Russians were present. Will he admit it this time?

http://tvrain.ru/articles/putin_zago...borony-364386/

1. I fail to see how this site is connected to several footages of three tanks roaming around Donetsk, you still have no hard evidence that these three freshly demothballed T-64 came from Russia

2. I don't read minds, but I give 80% probability that Putin will admit presence of Russian volunteers when the whole mess will be over, one way or other.


upd. good qoutation from Orwell's "Looking back on the Spanish War"

The only propaganda line open to the Nazis and Fascists was to represent themselves as Christian patriots saving Spain from a Russian dictatorship. This involved pretending that life in Government Spain was just one long massacre (vide the Catholic Herald or the Daily Mail — but these were child's play compared with the Continental Fascist press), and it involved immensely exaggerating the scale of Russian intervention. Out of the huge pyramid of lies which the Catholic and reactionary press all over the world built up, let me take just one point — the presence in Spain of a Russian army. Devout Franco partisans all believed in this; estimates of its strength went as high as half a million. Now, there was no Russian army in Spain. There may have been a handful of airmen and other technicians, a few hundred at the most, but an army there was not. Some thousands of foreigners who fought in Spain, not to mention millions of Spaniards, were witnesses of this. Well, their testimony made no impression at all upon the Franco propagandists, not one of whom had set foot in Government Spain. Simultaneously these people refused utterly to admit the fact of German or Italian intervention at the same time as the Germany and Italian press were openly boasting about the exploits of their’ legionaries’. I have chosen to mention only one point, but in fact the whole of Fascist propaganda about the war was on this level.

[kaur]

mirhond, nice discussion. First you post here information, that is from really suspicious source. Then you add speculations that are extension of that suspicious information. Then you add old Google pic that is next spin. What I must say now. Thanks for hard evidence? Are you kidding

About your Spanish thought. Isn't time for you to look in the mirror? Hunta, fascists, Western conspiracy etc. Russians have lied so many times during last long months, that I don't even dare to believe your weather forecast

[mirhond]

mirhond, nice discussion. First you post here information, that is from really suspicious source. Then you add speculations that are extension of that suspicious information. Then you add old Google pic that is next spin. What I must say now. Thanks for hard evidence? Are you kidding

About your Spanish thought. Isn't time for you to look in the mirror? Hunta, fascists, Western conspiracy etc. Russians have lied so many times during last long months, that I don't even dare to believe your weather forecast

1. "Tale of three little tanks" is turning funny Well, if Youtube realtime footages from several different places is suspicious to you to the point of complete rejection, then there wouldn't be any evidence for you, exept that you are really want to believe without question, and if your believes don't change no matter what you see with your own eyes - it's called confirmation bias.

2. Its a perfect example of To Qouque Fallacy, would you stop doing this, pretty please? I even created special thread for you to rant about lies in Russian media, use it freely.

[Firn]

I think it is important to focus on the basics. If Putin has sent Russian tanks to support the Russian-backed or Russian forces waging war against Ukraine, as Nato intelligence does strongly suggest or not changes very little about the fact that Putin's Russia is waging war against Ukraine.

[Ray]

Ray, did Obama took Wolfowitz doctrine file with him? I doubt I do encourage you to study deeper that Eastern Partnership topic. This is quite complicated topic and a lot of contradictions.

Foreign Policy and Strategic perspective does not change with changes in Govt, especially those which have direct advantage to the Country.

In the changed geopolitical environment after the Cold War, the Wolfowich Doctrine was the right way to proceed, if the US was to maintain her paramount position in the world.

I daresay any change in Govt of the country of the US' world stature, would wily nily, ensure that it becomes second rate.

Now, if it is your suggestion that the Obama Administration has trashed the Wolfowich Doctrine and abandoned it totally,then could you indicate what is the doctrine Obama is pursuing and if the EaP (Eastern Partnership) is not in line with the Wolfowich Doctrine.

As I have mentioned earlier, the aim enunciated as the raison d'tre for the EaP is laudable, but, to put it bluntly, the professed altruism is the usual Goody Two Shoes window dressing that accompanies the rationale for such alliances. Anyone who has done in-depth analysis of any such treaty document would not take it at face value, unless one is naive.

EU was in a tizzy and there were serious disagreements in the plan to bail out the cash strapped EU member, Greece, and here you wish to justify that because of altruistic compassion, the EU is embracing with warm comfort, near failed states of erstwhile USSR.

Forgive me, but I can't help being pragmatic in my approach since the jigsaw for the rationale of events in the past and the present is not falling in place.

[kaur]

1. Ray, I suggest you to read this story.

http://www.ceps.be/book/after-vilniu...e-what-be-done

2. mirhond, you want to make this three tank story funny. I say it again, you started to spin very suspicious story without no proof.

How you comment that 3 Grad epsiode?

Column of separatists is moving in Donetsk area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPSlOsCXkYk

Here is one Grad cought by Ukrainian forces. Take a closer look at thouse wierd horizontal panels on the sides and between backlights. Those are not part of original Grad construction. Isn't this construction used to fix cover over MRL system? I don't comment those Russian documents

http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/1195-hro...foto?_utl_t=fb

The following pictures are from an exercise that the 18th brigade held in 2011 - source in Russian: Denis Mokrushin
Note the Ural based launchers and a similar marking scheme, especially on the second from right truck

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...post1063406056

[Ray]

1. Ray, I suggest you to read this story.

http://www.ceps.be/book/after-vilniu...e-what-be-done

Instead of asking me to study history, it would be more useful if you could educate by indicating how I am reading the realtime events wrong.

[kaur]

Ray, I don't understand what you want me to say? I give you link that explains EP programm history and failure before last autumn summit, that triggered events in Ukraine (the topic is about that). You are talking about neocons worldview, that Americans hoped to get rid electing Obama president. Should I say that necons have established their underground in EU and in EP countries? How is Greece bailout connected to this topic? Seriously, I have to admit that I'm too slow for your sharp ideas

[Ray]

Ray, I don't understand what you want me to say? I give you link that explains EP programm history and failure before last autumn summit, that triggered events in Ukraine (the topic is about that). You are talking about neocons worldview, that Americans hoped to get rid electing Obama president. Should I say that necons have established their underground in EU and in EP countries? How is Greece bailout connected to this topic? Seriously, I have to admit that I'm too slow for your sharp ideas

It is no brainer.

I am trying to look at and understand the issue logically causative of the end of the Cold War and the New World Order - the new period of dramatic change in world political thought and the balance of power.

I am not looking at it piecemeal and that is where you and I are divergent.

It is a strawman's argument to blame Neocons (I am not too conversant with American expressions and so forgive me if I have used it wrongly). Having dabble in geostrategy, I think that the Neocons were spot on. And like it or not, those who are observing the US from a distance and in a non partisan manner, since it does not affect them, think that what the US and the West is doing is exactly what Wolfowich enunciated - no brooking upstarts who wish to challenge US supremacy.

Do you really think Obama or anyone else being US citizens will deviate from such 'noble' thoughts of US supremacy?

Russia having been brought to their knees suddenly having grandiose ideas of still being a superpower is but an 'upstart' in US calculations, if I got it right.

What has the Greece bailout to do with it?

Lets make it easier to understand with a practical example.

If you have a huge problem to salvage a poor relation, it would be rather daft and disingenuous to suggest that you go and embrace and salvage panhandlers (I believe that means those who are down and out and require doles and charity to exist).

That is why all the clever altruism of the Eastern European Partnership that you want me to believe is appearing to be a bit too thick.

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.

[kaur]

Ray, pardon, but I'm not American neocon specialist. Can't help you studing them

[Ray]

Ray, pardon, but I'm not American neocon specialist. Can't help you studing them

No one is a specialist.

It is only a question of being observant and having a inquiring and open mind.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---another example of Russian weapons in the Ukraine that were never issued by the Ukrainian Army and the MANPADs were based on the packing documents issued to a Russian Army unit---how did they then get to the Ukraine from that Russian Army unit---maybe some Russian Technical SGT "sold" them?

http://inforesist.org/en/photo-proof...in-the-donbas/

[OUTLAW 09]

1. "Tale of three little tanks" is turning funny Well, if Youtube realtime footages from several different places is suspicious to you to the point of complete rejection, then there wouldn't be any evidence for you, exept that you are really want to believe without question, and if your believes don't change no matter what you see with your own eyes - it's called confirmation bias.

2. Its a perfect example of To Qouque Fallacy, would you stop doing this, pretty please? I even created special thread for you to rant about lies in Russian media, use it freely.

mirhond--remember my use of the term "Russian fascists"---it in fact seems that armed irregular Russian "fascists" have arrived into eastern Ukraine as based on their own press release.

So exactly why are Russian "fascists" supposedly fighting against Ukrainian "fascists"----now that explain that twist if you can.

http://inforesist.org/en/detachments...the-militants/

AND you never did comment on the photos of Russian MANPADs together with the actual Russia unit name who "originally" owned them.

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---it seems that Putin "lied" to the world when he stated that all Russian troops had returned to their bases and were no longer on the Ukrainian border.

It seems your "bearded Cossack" was actually lying so why believe the "bearded Cossack"?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...0EU12020140619

[OUTLAW 09]

mirhond---just why does Russia not want the Ukraine to have an unilateral demarcation of the border---cannot any country on their own "legally" mark their territorial borders UNLESS Russia sees the Ukraine as Russian and wants no "legally recognizable" border demarcation to exist that would deny their claim to the Ukraine as Russian territory.

I mean really mirhond come on even Russia has legal borders but the Ukraine cannot have them?

The Russian Foreign Ministry has been complaining about "demarcation" for the last week.

Since when is Putin "afraid" of "legal" borders?

[Firn]

Provocations, Proxies and Plausible Deniability

I suggested before that one key advantage of not-so well conceiled Russian invasion with shallow 'plausible' deniability was that it offered an opening for those not willing to shoulder some costs of heavier sanctions.

The key element in the current Ukraine crisis has been the ability of the Kremlin to maintain plausible deniability in the face of overt aggression, interference and invasion. Without this presentation, the diplomatic and economic links upon which Russia depends for leverage would be vulnerable. This leverage is most important with regards to European states who would be greatly hesitant to sacrifice their business interests and gas supplies.

Those relationships would have been at much greater risk had Russia invaded Ukraine with marked military units. Instead, by invading Crimea with unmarked troops and denying the presence of any Russian military forces until after the event, Vladimir Putin provided the essential space to maintain face. No leaders have been willing to cut their losses unless they absolutely have to. The invasion of Crimea was treated as a future possibility by European and American diplomats long after it was clear, within the first 24 hours of the “little green men” arriving at airports and administrative buildings, that Russia had begun a military invasion of sovereign European territory.

Something which I have seen confused, also in this thread are Russia's and Putins goals. Obviously as long as Putin holds almost regime-like most strings of power he is able to dominate Russia's policy and opponents and 'partners' have to treat both as largely the same. However from an internal Russian point of view the difference can be quite stark and is likely to increase in the longer run after the propaganda-driven euphoria gives more space to the price paid.

Overall it is still early days and it is important to remember how many praised the 'smart' US foreign policy in Iraq in those early days. Things can change a lot in a couple of months, even more so in years. We will see then clearer how smart Putins decisions were for his own good and for the Russian people...

[OUTLAW 09]

Provocations, Proxies and Plausible Deniability

I suggested before that one key advantage of not-so well conceiled Russian invasion with shallow 'plausible' deniability was that it offered an opening for those not willing to shoulder some costs of heavier sanctions.



Something which I have seen confused, also in this thread are Russia's and Putins goals. Obviously as long as Putin holds almost regime-like most strings of power he is able to dominate Russia's policy and opponents and 'partners' have to treat both as largely the same. However from an internal Russian point of view the difference can be quite stark and is likely to increase in the longer run after the propaganda-driven euphoria gives more space to the price paid.

Overall it is still early days and it is important to remember how many praised the 'smart' US foreign policy in Iraq in those early days. Things can change a lot in a couple of months, even more so in years. We will see then clearer how smart Putins decisions were for his own good and for the Russian people...

firn---more Russian equipment and irregulars crossed again in the face of Putin having said the border was closed and the increased Russian Army troop presence which they "claim" is not a build up.

http://inforesist.org/en/a-flow-of-w...ussian-border/

Interesting video showing actual Russian trucks, artillery, one tank and APCs evidently coming into the separatists from Russia---and still Putin "claims" no involvement and yes we have the border secure statements will now get Putin even heavier sanctions as no one is believing anything he is saying any more.

http://inforesist.org/en/video-a-con...es-in-lugansk/

[OUTLAW 09]

With the new Russian "enhanced" border security does anyone have a clue as to "how" then Russian military equipment and irregular fighters are getting across the border?

Or maybe "enhanced" means if you are an irregular you are good to cross or if you are Ukrainian we will not allow you to cross into Russia.

Putin has a strange way of defining what a border security enhancement and a "military buildup" is---all word games for the same thing as the equipment and irregulars are still crossing.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140620/190...aine-Only.html