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Thread: Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

  1. #1741
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    This statement doesn't belong to this thread, because it's not an agrument for
    if you have your own vision of the long term interests of Russia and it's population you are wellcome to the neighbouring thread, I'd like to read a comprehensive post from you.

    Outlaw, what part of the phrase "I don't read your posts" you don't understand? If your posts contain something useful to other readers, appeal to the public and stop using my codename. I won't answer to you, because a really don't read your posts.
    I would pick a plan that doesn't cause young Russian's to leave, Russians to die early,and a future demographic time bomb.

  2. #1742
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    Another example of a Russian TV total misinformation that was so bad even the Russians pulled it as it was a total fabrication from start to end and was declared that within minutes after it was rleased.

    Maybe our Russian expert mirhond could give us some insight on why it was such a bad Russian fabrication?

    http://khpg.org.ua/en/index.php?id=1405478412

  3. #1743
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    Ulenspiegel---a simple basic question that I do not see often answered concerning the Crimea and the current Russian view towards the Crimea.

    Correct me if I am wrong but who in fact "gave" the Crimea "away" and was it not done under a "communist" leader in a "communist legal fashion" in the beginning of say 1954 which if I recall the Soviet Union was still wading through "Stalinism" was it not?

    So are we saying that a "communist" country led by not so softie "Communist Party fine tuned in the Stalin days " using "communist" legal terms somehow got it "wrong"?

    So now it is up to the Ukraine and the West to do what "take a time out and stand in the corner" and allow another former "communist ie KGB COL" a chance for a "redo" of history say "60" years later?

    Does that makes sense to you?

    The missed opportunity for the Russian/Soviet government was around 1989, when it would have been possible to reassign the Krim, they did not do it because of political weakness.

    I have not noticed a single German political leader nor a single German newspaper actually challenge the above statement---meaning-- are we the West to give Russia a chance to redo history all because someone in the former Soviet Union who was a "valid leader" "made a stupid 1954 mistake" in the "eyes" of the current 2014 Russian leader?

    Realistically, the German reunification was only possible because of a temporary weakness in the SU/Russia around 1989. Do you really expect that a German government will oppose the occupatioon as long as it runs without war crimes?

    Is that not what the current Putin argument really is all about if one really reads his statements---a chance to correct in his eyes "a stupid Communist mistake from 1954". So are you in fact stating that the "stupid West who said nothing in 1954" should in fact stand to the side and allow another "stupid mistake in 2014 to be made again"?

    Heck using that argument Germany could stand up in 2014 and say "excuse me because that stupid Hitler made a mistake in 1939 we want the western portion of Poland back and the western portion of the Czech Republic back because we did not have a chance to correct that stupid Hitler
    back in 1939"---so now we Germany also want our own "redo" of history because we Germany did not have a chance to call Hitler stupid back then and stop him.

    How do you define realpolitik?

    You do realize that is exactly what Putin is saying about the Crimea and you do realize the West is allowing a complete "redo" of history just because a single person feels his nose is disjointed by a former Communist leader who he never knew because he was not born in those times although he himself was a Communist so one might think he would have empathy for that historical time period of the Soviet Communist Party?

    But again I have never heard and or seen written anywhere that Putin ever revoked his Communist Party membership and the Party still survives so maybe he is a "hidden member still"---or has anyone writing here seen such a revocation notice?
    Some questions for you:

    Do you really think that we should do more than some economic sanctions in case of the Krim?

    Or do you think that the Krim is worth for the west to play a military game?

    Do you think the west holds after 2003 the moral high ground?

    What was our and the Ukrainian position when Yugoslavia went south?

    Unfortunately, the world is a spectrum of grey, my feeling is, you want to sell a clear black and white scenario that does not exists.
    Last edited by Ulenspiegel; 07-16-2014 at 02:00 PM.

  4. #1744
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post

    Heck using that argument Germany could stand up in 2014 and say "excuse me because that stupid Hitler made a mistake in 1939 we want the western portion of Poland back and the western portion of the Czech Republic back because we did not have a chance to correct that stupid Hitler
    back in 1939"---so now we Germany also want our own "redo" of history because we Germany did not have a chance to call Hitler stupid back then and stop him.
    Short version: For Germany it is much much better to have cordial relations with Poland and the Czeck Republic than to reclaim territory, in which no meaningful numbers of Germans live anymore and where BTW Germans as EU citizens could live and work if they like. What is your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    These leaders have nothing in common with Donetsk or the Donbas. They are citizens of Russia with their origins in Moscow, the Pskov region, and Novosibirsk, respectively. They have arrived in Ukraine on special mission in April 2014, February 2014, and July 2014, respectively.
    1. They actually do have something in common with some locals: the same political agenda and beliefs.

    2. Appeal to the places of origin is ridiculous, for your information, ideas may cross the borders. It's like saying "Poles from "Dombrowski" international brigade and Germans from "Condor Legion" had nothing to do with Spain, they arrived from Poland and Germany, respectively"
    It's a pity that you bunked off historical lessions at school.
    Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.

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    mirhond, Che thought also that peasents love him ... After all the fallacys of your previous posts, should I discard you like you did to Outlaw? What is the joint poltical agenda of "Ozero" cooperative and Donbass?

    Interview with head of Lugansk SBU head in Russian. Nice details about Russians activities there. Call name "Older sister" was FSB, "sisiter" was GRU etc. Nice joint op. One gives his agents, second provides arms and experts. Going through Google translate is worth the verbal pain

    http://gordonua.com/publications/Pet...ala-29825.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulenspiegel View Post
    Some questions for you:

    Do you really think that we should do more than some economic sanctions in case of the Krim?

    Or do you think that the Krim is worth for the west to play a military game?

    Do you think the west holds after 2003 the moral high ground?

    What was our and the Ukrainian position when Yugoslavia went south?

    Unfortunately, the world is a spectrum of grey, my feeling is, you want to sell a clear black and white scenario that does not exists.
    Here is our difference---at what point does a country or a set of countries respond and how does that response get the attention of in this case an aggressor that upset the basis of the European development as a whole since 1945.

    Or did I miss that point?
    Secondly, the Russian economy is actually far weaker than most think--and here is the core point most Communists including inside the GDR started to believe their own economic rhetoric in the 70s thus the numbers being reported up the chain by the LPGs and Kombinats etc. were fake and they were added to at every level until it hit the leaders hip and in the end the leadership believed the numbers while those at the bottom knew they were fake.

    That is now ongoing in Russian---Putin believed his numbers as did his radical ultra nationalist advisors and it now appears the economic truth has set in---but Putin went way to far out on a limb to safely climb down.

    The sanctions should be implemented harder and faster---yes it would hurt the EU but the only way to get his attention is to prove you will accept pain for one's believes the West has not shown that thus he believes he can continue as he wants.

    This is not about morals ---this is hard core annexation politics nothing more nothing less and if one is trying to work the morals angle then all is lost---one cannot weigh the Iraq against say Kosovo and Kosovo against the break up of Yugoslavia which actually a large number of people accurately predicted would often---I even got a 1 on a paper on that exact topic in 1977 and actually predicted how each zone would devolve into violence---it was there for all to see many choose not to see.

    The Yugoslavian breakup was driven by something new the West had not seen thus the long delay trying to figure it out---the Christian Muslim divide.

    And did the West get it wrong just as Putin is struggling with a whole list of Islamic issues vs say the statements coming from the Russian Orthodox Church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    1. They actually do have something in common with some locals: the same political agenda and beliefs.

    2. Appeal to the places of origin is ridiculous, for your information, ideas may cross the borders. It's like saying "Poles from "Dombrowski" international brigade and Germans from "Condor Legion" had nothing to do with Spain, they arrived from Poland and Germany, respectively"
    It's a pity that you bunked off historical lessions at school.
    ok comrade Russian expert mirhond are you actually trying to sell us that a Russian passport carrying individual with a Russian military card, carrying weapons never issued in the Ukraine and having a legal residence inside Russian is in fact a Ukrainian.

    You seem to bunk off (like the new twist in your writing ie English which you are not) you own understanding of the eastern Ukraine.

    You remind me of those Russian sailors coming off a ship following the red flag and shouting not really knowing exactly what they were shouting but hey shouting is a good thing and is typical Russian.

    Can you explain to us here just how it is possible that one Communist leader using Communist legal law gave something away to another Communist country only then 60 years later another former Communist then declares that the Communists in 1954 were and are total idiots for doing that because that is exactly what Putin is arguing---guess he is the "good" communist vs say those very "bad" communists who knew nothing in 1954 but again maybe it was because they were Stalinists not Communists.

    Since when in Communism does one get a chance to down over a mistake---thought Communists never made mistakes as they viewed their decisions to be perfect.

    Come on Russian expert mirhond get with the program and finally state something that is the truth instead of outright lies as everything you write here is in fact a bunk off.

  9. #1749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulenspiegel View Post
    Short version: For Germany it is much much better to have cordial relations with Poland and the Czeck Republic than to reclaim territory, in which no meaningful numbers of Germans live anymore and where BTW Germans as EU citizens could live and work if they like. What is your point?
    I am making the point and yes even in the Ukraine there is still a sizable German minority-there are virtually none in both Poland and the Czech republic because they were all put on forced marches to the West ie ethnic cleansing and or changed their name to Polish or Czech in order to remain in those countries--if we go back to the theory that countries can take any land just because there are ethnic minorities they perceive to be under the total control and pressure of the existing country they are in fact going back into history and changing it---is Russia in fact stating exactly what Hitler stated in 1938/1939---we all seem to drift away from those statements which perfectly match Putin and all of his statements first on Crimea and now in eastern Ukraine.

    So again the question what is the difference between 38/39 and now and what is the response from the Germans and the EU in 2014 do they accept 38/39 or reject it?

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    so Russian expert mirhond---what is your expert opinion on this Interfax release from today?

    Interfax 10:54
    RUSSIA WILL NOT TOLERATE U.S. SANCTION BLACKMAIL, RESERVES RIGHT TO RETALIATORY MEASURES - FOREIGN MINISTRY

    Actually has not the Russian FM been saying this exact wording on all the other sanctions---so when are they finally going to do something about it---oh but wait they cannot without hurting an economy that took a massive hit this morning of over 3% loss in both the Rubel and the Russian stock market.

    A lot of oligarchs plus Putin's personal wealth "disappeared" this morning and this is only the beginning.

    so mirhond --what was exactly your opinion again on how great the Russian win is in the Crimea?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    so Russian expert mirhond---what is your expert opinion on this Interfax release from today?

    Interfax 10:54
    RUSSIA WILL NOT TOLERATE U.S. SANCTION BLACKMAIL, RESERVES RIGHT TO RETALIATORY MEASURES - FOREIGN MINISTRY

    Actually has not the Russian FM been saying this exact wording on all the other sanctions---so when are they finally going to do something about it---oh but wait they cannot without hurting an economy that took a massive hit this morning of over 3% loss in both the Rubel and the Russian stock market.

    A lot of oligarchs plus Putin's personal wealth "disappeared" this morning and this is only the beginning.

    so mirhond --what was exactly your opinion again on how great the Russian win is in the Crimea?
    Perhaps of more importance then sanctions is this. From today:

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/russi...ons-1405584058

    A fresh round of U.S. sanctions once again ripped into Russia's markets, with stocks, bonds and the ruble taking a hit.

    The new restrictions, which target Russian state-controlled oil giant OAO Rosneft ROSN.MZ -4.45% and other top firms, follow weeks of U.S. threats that Russia would face repercussions unless it helped defuse the crisis in eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russia separatists have been fighting the Ukrainian government for months.

    Moscow's MICEX index slid 2.7%, with investors interpreting the measures as more likely to hold back the Russian economy than previous sanctions.

  12. #1752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulenspiegel View Post
    [COLOR="Red"][COLOR="Black"]Some questions for you:

    Do you really think that we should do more than some economic sanctions in case of the Krim?
    Well what sanctions have been applied and what deterrent effect have they had?

    I suggest the response from the West has been pathetic other than from Sweden (Carl Bildt) in a speech at the Atlantic Council:

    I can think of only one previous case in modern history when a regime suddenly militarily grabs and annexes another country or piece of territory of another country, claiming some sort of more or less relevant historical justification, and that was Saddam Hussein's invasion, occupation and annexation of Kuwait in 1991. The international reaction then was swift, strong and effective, and I believe this was very important in preventing anyone else, wherever that could have been, from harboring thoughts about making similar dangerous adventures.
    With the US sadly we are seeing the last kicks of a dying horse - and how pathetic these kicks are too. As for Germany and the other (cowardly) nations of the EU they are now applying a policy of appeasement towards Russia.

    So it is the principle of the matter that counts and not the spin being applied in a pathetic attempt to make cowardly appeasement appear to be an intelligent and logical approach to the annexation of Crimea.

    Russia has correctly noted that there is no military ability - jointly - to counter any territorial moves may attempt in the absence of the US.

    Bildt again:

    In much the same way, I believe it is very important that we stand very firm on what the Russian invasion, occupation and annexation of Crimea really meant and that we are clear on never accepting either its legality or its different consequences. If we should waiver on this, I see a clear risk that further Crimeas could happen further down the road, perhaps not tomorrow, and perhaps not the day after tomorrow, perhaps, but perhaps the day after the day after tomorrow, perhaps not there, perhaps not here, but perhaps somewhere else, and the consequences would be really bad. If we don't see that risk, yes, then history might well see also us as sleepwalkers into catastrophe in the future.
    If I disagree with Bildt it is only in the choice of the word 'sleepwalkers', I would have used the word 'cowards', (but then again he is a diplomat). I believe the risk is seen and noted and the specific and deliberate choice has been made to appease the Russians, no sleepwalking involved.

    Finally the only people with a military option is the US and clearly the current administration is running scared of any confrontation with Russia and just about anyone else. Putin knows this. Britain has steadily reduced its military to the point that it is incapable of any substantial military effort. Putin knows this. The rest of the EU in military terms is pathetic, this includes Germany. Putin knows this. Even the application economic sanctions seems to be too much for Germany to contemplate. Putin is the one laughing.
    Last edited by JMA; 07-17-2014 at 12:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    mirhond, Che thought also that peasents love him ... After all the fallacys of your previous posts, should I discard you like you did to Outlaw? What is the joint poltical agenda of "Ozero" cooperative and Donbass?

    http://gordonua.com/publications/Pet...ala-29825.html
    Red Herring Fallacy. In order to make your statement relevant you have to make two things:
    prove that "Ozero" cooperative has something to do with Strelkov&Co
    disprove that Strelkov&Co share political agenda with some belligerent locals.

    If you don't know what their political agenda and beliefs are - do some search with Яндекс.

    On Petrulevich - SBU general who ####ed up securiy situation in Lugansk, surrendered to separatists and opened the doors of SBU armory to them is now trying to save his ass from lashes. Is there any reason to believe him?

    ps. Have courage to carry The Burden of Proof and discard anyone you like - it's a free board.
    Last edited by mirhond; 07-17-2014 at 01:10 PM.
    Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mirhond View Post
    Red Herring Fallacy. In order to make your statement relevant you have to make two things:
    prove that "Ozero" cooperative has something to do with Strelkov&Co
    disprove that Strelkov&Co share political agenda with some belligerent locals.

    If you don't know what their political agenda and beliefs are - do some search with Яндекс.

    On Petrulevich - SBU general who ####ed up securiy situation in Lugansk, surrendered to separatists and opened the doors of SBU armory to them is now trying to save his ass from lashes. Is there any reason to believe him?

    ps. Have courage to carry The Burden of Proof and discard anyone you like - it's a free board.

    come on comrade Russian expert mirhond---we all know that you are only providing cover for lies being disseminated into the West ie that Putin never lies.

    come on Russian expert how can you argue any "fallacy" when your own "fallacy" is not even a "fallacy" but outright lies.

    Did not Putin command his federated Border Security Service to "enhance the border security"---a simply yes or no would suffice as you do not need to explain much other than the border is not secure which in turn means Putin lied did he not?

    I do not think he said "the FSB and Border Security should be smuggling weapons and firing Grads into the Ukraine" did he--if they are in fact firing into the Ukraine then how is that "enhanced border security"

    Come on Russian expert mirhond comment on the Grad firing into the Ukraine video. It does appear that Putin must have been lying or his government security services seem to be ignoring him---which is it Russian expert?

    http://inforesist.org/en/evidence-of...eration-video/

    By the way comrade Russian expert mirhond---a GoogleMap analysis for currently four Youtube videos fully indicate that Grads were being fired from inside Russian territory so much for trusting your pal Putin when he stated there was "enhanced" border security---some "enhancement" do you not think?

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...s_us_sanctions
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 07-17-2014 at 02:26 PM.

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    comrade Russian expert mirhond---maybe we can be you to admit here that the dead bodies of Russian troops from the 45th Russian SF Regt were in fact returned recently to the "motherland"---it seems the Russian government cannot so maybe you have better connections than say Putin does.

    By the way, Russia has yet to explain the fact of the return of the corpses of its soldiers to Russia from Ukraine leaked to the media. For example, [the soldiers] of the 45th Special Forces Airborne Regiment. I would like to hear [Dmitry] Kiselev‘s version.

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    http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140717/1...ns-to-80s.html

    comrade Russian expert mirhond----just maybe Putin should have thought about this before he annexed the Crimea and is now sending weapons and troops into the eastern Ukraine.

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    mirhond, Russia is presidential country. President happens to be Mr Putin. Russian citizens are heads of Russian rebels in Ukraine, Russian weapons are transported to rebels. It seems that Putin has lost control of his country?

    mirhond, зачем ты такой наглый? You act like Goebbels foot soldier. Just lies, lies and lies. I do understand that that rational arguments are all lost and this is only path left

  18. #1758
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    Funny moment of chairborne internet warrior got busted

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=NvFAvKBcVWw

    Miserably looking guy in black, Budakov Dmitri is claimed to be internet-vigilante, who threatened a Gorlovka closed community admin, Alexei Petrov (known separatist supporter) to come after him with "huge gut-opener". It turned out that Petrov himself "invited" this guy to private conversation and offered him a knife combat with handicap - Budakov get a sharp blade, Petrov get a dull one. To the public disappointment, epic battle didn't happened - Budakov refused and even tried to apologise.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaur View Post
    mirhond, Russia is presidential country. President happens to be Mr Putin. Russian citizens are heads of Russian rebels in Ukraine, Russian weapons are transported to rebels. It seems that Putin has lost control of his country?

    mirhond, зачем ты такой наглый? You act like Goebbels foot soldier. Just lies, lies and lies. I do understand that that rational arguments are all lost and this is only path left
    1. Stating the obvious and asking rethorical questions isn't a way to prove your initial claims.
    2. Hitler Card and Appeal to Emotion in two lines - please, continue, I'am making the bookmarks ^_^
    Last edited by mirhond; 07-17-2014 at 02:40 PM.
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    Exclamation Moderator: thread locked for the evening

    Bayonet Brant,

    Point taken. Some of those who post on Ukrainian / Crimean matters have strong views on many of the issues involved, including the presence of each other.

    It has long been obvious that some suspect Mirhond's membership is an "info op" itself.

    I will undertake, again, a review and create a new thread for the MH17 disaster posts. Now done and the thread is 'Shot down over the Ukraine: MH17 (catch all)'

    Thread unlocked and now time for dinner.
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 07-18-2014 at 07:19 PM.
    davidbfpo

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    Good dinner, I wanted to suggest that split. Good to see it done already.

    Russia Is Firing Missiles at Ukraine as the U.S. slaps additional sanction is a detailed article from FP.

    Just as news broke today that the U.S. Treasury Department was instituting a new suite of sanctions against Russia, video evidence has emerged apparently showing the most definitive proof yet of Moscow's direct participation in the ongoing war in eastern and southern Ukraine: Russian rockets being fired toward Ukraine.

    This afternoon, a video was posted to YouTube and shared on social media that claimed to show Grad rockets being fired from a Russian border town likely into Ukraine. Our team at the Interpreter found several other videos with the same descriptions -- Grad rocket launches from Gukovo toward Ukrainian territory.

    Several of the videos, filmed near a pond of some sort, were apparently taken by a resident of the town. A careful perusal of Google Street View reveals that several physical features in the videos match exactly a location in the northwest corner of the town, less than two miles from the Ukrainian border.

    There has been the Ukrainian claim that Russia shot down an Ukrainina Su-25.

    The Boeing crash is the third case of a plane being shot down after Ukrainian military planes, an An-26 transport plane and a Su-25 fighter jet, were brought down from the Russian territory. In particular, at 18:55 on July 16 the Ukrainian Intelligence Service (SBU) reported that Russian Air Force planes were used against an Ukrainian Air Force’s SU-25 plane near the town of Amvrosiyivka. To destroy the target, the command of the Russian Air Force ordered the pilot of a MiG-29 plane to use an R-27T (AA-10 Alamo-B) medium range Infra Red homing air-to-air missile. This type of missile cannot be detected by the Su-25’s SPO-15 radiation warning receiver, and neither can it be detected by satellite surveillance systems or post-launch surveillance systems.

    R-27 missiles are manufactured in Ukraine and have the markings of manufacturing company “Artem” (Kyiv), and so if missile debris is found it will not be identifiable as from a Russian weapon. During the air fight, Russian fighter aircraft homed in on the Ukrainian plane three times for a guaranteed rocket launch. After the target was acquired with the help of an onboard quantum optical location station, the MiG-29 fired one missile at the Ukrainian plane. It is only thanks to the skillful anti-missile maneuvers of the Ukrainian pilot that a direct hit was avoided. The missile hit the motor nozzle and the pilot crash-landed the plane.
    There is no doubt that in recent weeks Ukrainian forces pushed back seperatist elements and have brought a considerable area with a large population back under state control. There have been considerable casualities among the seperatists and Russia has increased it's supply, especially of heavy weapons. Since air attacks inflicted much of the damage, also on supply convoys coming from the Russian side it is only logically that the Russian-backed speratists wanted to blunt those. Both the delivery of more capable SAMs and the order to Russian jets to shoot an Ukrainian plane make lot of sense in a miltary context. Of course it increased the political risk in a foreign context, but the recent event was clearly not expected. The seemingly narrow decision making in the Kremlin has been already discussed before.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

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