Christianity and proselytizing in the military (thread slice)

[reed11b]

Wow, very impressed by the open mindedness of the participants in this forum. After seeing both gay and female soldiers serve with distinction in combat, I must say that I am ready to recognize both serving openly in combat roles. Maintaining the "good old boy" system simply becouse the "good old boys" may act violently is not in the best interest of the military. Might help to end this ridiculous forced christianity the military is so fond of right now. It is one of my biggest hesitations on accepting a commision, since as an enlisted men I can avoid it easier then as an officer.
Reed

[CR6]

Might help to end this ridiculous forced christianity the military is so fond of right now. It is one of my biggest hesitations on accepting a commision, since as an enlisted men I can avoid it easier then as an officer.
Reed

I haven't SEEN (i.e. experienced or witnessed) any examples of Christianity being forced on anyone in 16 years of commissioned service. I'm familiar with the problems of evangelicalism at the AF Academy, but it's not as though the officer ranks require bible study participation. Truth in lending, I am a Roman Catholic; however that's between God and me. It's never affected my professional relationship with other officers or soldiers. Your experience may be quite different.

As for openly serving homosexuals, Ken White had an excellent point in this thread, stating that as American society becomes more tolerant, so too will the Army.

[William F. Owen]

As for openly serving homosexuals, Ken White had an excellent point in this thread, stating that as American society becomes more tolerant, so too will the Army.

Personally, and speaking from a British Army perspective, I'd like to see a little less toleration when it comes to racists, alcoholics, delinquents, and all other forms of behavioural abnormality and bigotry, however expressed.

I don't want or think that armies should be composed of high minded warrior poets, but they should aspire to hold to solid secular values, that their society prizes.

[CR6]

Personally, and speaking from a British Army perspective, I'd like to see a little less toleration when it comes to racists, alcoholics, delinquents, and all other forms of behavioural abnormality and bigotry, however expressed.

I don't want or think that armies should be composed of high minded warrior poets, but they should aspire to hold to solid secular values, that their society prizes.

Point well taken William in that respect for others, honesty, adherence to standards, and a strong work ethic are examples of the values that an army should require of its soldiers. That being said, those values are not incompatible with homosexuality (nor do I think you said they were). The behaviors you describe should not be tolerated, but that's not the same thing as society (and by extension the armed forces) accepting openly gay people.

[reed11b]

that's not the same thing as society (and by extension the armed forces) accepting openly gay people.

Bigotry is bigotry, so I am a little confused how being intolerant towards bigotry is not the same as accepting openly gay people.
Reed

[CR6]

Bigotry is bigotry, so I am a little confused how being intolerant towards bigotry is not the same as accepting openly gay people.
Reed

My statement was that the Army may become more tolerant as society does, whereas William stated he would like to see less tolerance for "behavioural abnormality". I read that as being opposed to openly gay soldiers serving. Perhaps I mis-understood him.

[selil]

I haven't SEEN (i.e. experienced or witnessed) any examples of Christianity being forced on anyone in 16 years of commissioned service. I'm familiar with the problems of evangelicalism at the AF Academy, but it's not as though the officer ranks require bible study participation.

Personal experience nearing on 20 years ago was just the opposite. Started in bootcamp if you didn't go to chapel on Sunday you were a dirty filthy heathen (Drill Sgts words) and forced to do scut work or PT. Made the "Idle hands are the devils workshop" saying very real.

When I got to fleet I was a married Marine (Spouse was issued prior to enlistment) and told by company commander and loudly by 1st Sgt that I and my spouse would find a church every Sunday and report such or my off base housing permission would be revoked leaving spouse and new born in a lurch.

This was true at both Pendelton and MCAGCC and was a theme of the company commander welfare visits to our off base home (usually quarterly).

[Entropy]

Like CR6 neither me nor my wife have ever exerienced any kind of proselytizing. The worst I ever saw was that one of my former wing commanders opened every staff meeting with a prayer.

[BayonetBrant]

I haven't SEEN (i.e. experienced or witnessed) any examples of Christianity being forced on anyone in 16 years of commissioned service

I saw a bunch of people run thru the wringer for being the wrong brand of Christian. You can imagine how the 2 wiccans in the unit were treated.

[BayonetBrant]

(maybe worthy of its own thread, but...)

At the moment, I'm sitting in an academic presentation about the shared military experience of the doughboys in WWI and how it shaped their worldview compared with the homefront.

The most criticized institution among WWI soldiers? The YMCA, which was in large measure the "USO" of the war in their reach and scope. They were accused of war profiteering, draft evasion, and above all, proselytizing.
Soldiers consistently complained about how YMCA secretaries would wait until the 'movie shows' were packed with soldiers wanting to escape the war for an hour or so before starting a group prayer. The YMCA would give away religious-themed cards for soldiers to write letters home, but would charge for everything else.

Seems this is not really a new phenomenon...

And now back to our regularly-scheduled debate

[Steve Blair]

This was something of a common complaint going back to the various temperance-type movements in the post-Civil War army (and possibly before). Interesting discussion, and might well be worth a thread of its own.

Social outlooks and "baggage" can have an important impact on our performance in Small Wars, so the discussion is (IMO) important.

[selil]

Thread was cleaved sorry if there are any lost souls.... (ack can't believe I said that) bad sammy.

[Hacksaw]

(maybe worthy of its own thread, but...)

The most criticized institution among WWI soldiers? The YMCA, which was in large measure the "USO" of the war in their reach and scope. They were accused of war profiteering, draft evasion, and above all, proselytizing.
Soldiers consistently complained about how YMCA secretaries would wait until the 'movie shows' were packed with soldiers wanting to escape the war for an hour or so before starting a group prayer. The YMCA would give away religious-themed cards for soldiers to write letters home, but would charge for everything else.

Brandt - YMCA = Young Men's Christian Association - truth in advertizing

Now back to our regularly scheduled program

[120mm]

And that, is the rub. If you're going to be open-minded and accepting, how can you condemn bigotry?

[BayonetBrant]

Brandt - YMCA = Young Men's Christian Association - truth in advertizing

Now back to our regularly scheduled program

No - I totally get it. The point is that the soldiers saw it as a service organization, and were frustrated by the way in which the preaching was injected. I'm not saying its right/wrong, just that complaints about preaching in the ranks has been around for a while.

[marct]

Seems this is not really a new phenomenon...

Buncha amatoors ! Take a look at the armies and chaplains in the 30 years war, especially the Catholic armies under the Ferdinand II of Austria - pros, real pros.

[Tom Odom]

Buncha amatoors ! Take a look at the armies and chaplains in the 30 years war, especially the Catholic armies under the Ferdinand II of Austria - pros, real pros.

I always love the scene in the Four Muskeeters when the priests are blessing the cannons as they fire on the French Hugenot infidels

I had a retired Jesuit priest as my main French instructor at DLI--those pros are still pros

Tom

[Stevely]

Wow, very impressed by the open mindedness of the participants in this forum. After seeing both gay and female soldiers serve with distinction in combat, I must say that I am ready to recognize both serving openly in combat roles. Maintaining the "good old boy" system simply becouse the "good old boys" may act violently is not in the best interest of the military. Might help to end this ridiculous forced christianity the military is so fond of right now. It is one of my biggest hesitations on accepting a commision, since as an enlisted men I can avoid it easier then as an officer.
Reed

I never once saw an example of "forced Christianity" during my time in service. Do you have specific examples of this widespread practice, or are you perhaps only so open-minded where it comes to sexual practices and not religious faith?

[reed11b]

Link
Forced may be too strong a word, but when attending services is strongly hinted to be a factor for promotion, it is not in good keeping with separation of church and state. Most chaplains and leaders realize the difference between the need for spirituality and the false belief that there style of spirituality is the only style. Most, but not all. I have seen army chaplains refuse to try and meet the spiritual needs of non-Christians (primarily Buddhist and Wiccan). I also recognize that the problem seems to be worse in support units then in combat units (the exceptions seems to be medical and aviation units). Is the problem 100% across the military? Of course not, but it is still a bigger problem then is acceptable.
Reed

[jkm_101_fso]

but when attending services is strongly hinted to be a factor for promotion

You are kidding, right?