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Thread: Hamas in Gaza (merged thread)

  1. #61
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    Hamas arrested two members of Jaish al-Islam (group responsible for kidnapping BBC correspondent Alan Johnston)...

    Hamas security forces snatched two members of Jaish al-Islam on their way from dawn prayers on Tuesday and held them at the former Fatah military intelligence HQ. According to a Jaish member, one of the arrested men was given a mobile phone to call his comrades as a start of negotiations to swap them for Johnston, but instead the man told them not to bargain for their freedom.

    The militant who said he took that call said: 'The brother told me to refuse all talks with Hamas and to kill Alan if Hamas kills him. This has ended any chance of negotiations.'

    Hamas police commander Abu Khalid said: 'There was an operation...to arrest two members of Jaish al-Islam to put pressure on the Dogmosh family. The response to this was that Mumtaz threatened all foreigners and journalists in Gaza.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...115933,00.html




    Hamas detains leader of BBC reporter's abductors amid fighting

    Clashes have erupted for the first time between two Palestinian Islamic movements, Hamas and its former ally the Army of Islam, reportedly holding hostage a BBC reporter, the conflicting sides said.

    Hamas, which promised to secure the release of Alan Johnston, arrested a leader of the Army of Islam, Khattab al-Makdusi, early Monday in Gaza after his supporters opened fire at the local "police," the Palestinian Maan news agency said. In response, the Army of Islam took 10 Hamas students hostage.
    http://en.rian.ru/world/20070702/68176800.html
    Last edited by Sarajevo071; 07-03-2007 at 01:34 AM.

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    The War of Words between Hamas and al-Qaeda

    On June 14, Hamas evicted Fatah security forces from the Gaza Strip, establishing full control over the territory. Eleven days later, al-Qaeda second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri issued a statement calling on Muslims to support Hamas fighters -- the latest in an ongoing, public dialogue in which al-Qaeda and Hamas leaders have alternatively decried and praised each other's organizations. An analysis of this public exchange reveals that al-Qaeda is uncomfortable with Hamas leaders even as it fully supports the movement's militants.

    For al-Qaeda, any semblance of cooperation with moderate Muslims or "those trying to liberate the land of Islam through elections" is anathema. Consequently, despite initial support for Hamas's electoral gains, al-Qaeda has supported the organization's leaders only to the extent that they reject Fatah and the political process. Likewise, the more Hamas is willing to resort to armed force to accomplish its goals, the more vocal support it can expect from al-Qaeda. In light of these factors, the public debate between the two organizations -- carried out via numerous media outlets, official organizational releases, and other public statements -- has unfolded in four stages since March 2006.
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t...5.php?CID=2630

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    Default -Being Lonely On Top of Massada, or, Santa Comes To The ME

    Hamas has their Massada now, surrounded by Israelis, the sea and Egyptians that don't want their ideology spreading south. Their pathetic attempt at legitimacy visa-via arresting a couple of token jaish al-Islam gunmen is just that, a PR gambit that has no traction. Meanwhile, Fatah loyalists and agents embedded in Gaza will continue to ID hamas leaders and C&C sites for IDF missles. It reminds me in a way of the US giving Stinger missles to the mujahadin in Afghanistan to use against the Soviet Hind choppers. An enemy of an enemy is a temporary friend as they say. Can't you just imagine some Shin Bet and Mossad men sitting down to tea with some of the good ol' boys from Fatah? I would say Christmas comes early for some folks, except Jews and Muslims who don't much believe in Christmas.

  4. #64
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    Default Preparing for the Next Battle of Gaza

    SWJ Blog post - Preparing for the Next Battle of Gaza by Gary Anderson.

    The current situation in Gaza is a laboratory for the kind of conflicts that we are likely to see in the immediate future throughout the world. The best case solution would be to broker an agreement where the Hamas radicals and the more moderate Fatah faction can agree to accept that the existence of Israel is a fact and for Hamas to stop shooting rockets at the Israelis and threatening to annihilate them, which Hamas is not in a position to do in any case. If that fails, the big question for America and her allies is whether or not to support a Fattah military attempt to retake Gaza.

    Fatah is now like "“Sarge”" in the Beetle Bailey cartoon. It has gone over the brink and is holding onto a tree on the side of the cliff. The Americans and Israelis have offered Fattah a rope. The question is both whether the Fatah leadership will grab it and whether the Americans and Israelis will know how to handle the lifeline. None of this is a given. This is, at best, a tenuous situation. It might lead to a happy ending, or it might be a debacle. Everything depends on how Fatah handles Israeli and American support, and how they handle Hamas...

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    IDF is doing some 'heavy lifting' for Fatah, no doubt of that:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

    JPost.com » Israel » Article

    Jul. 5, 2007 6:45 | Updated Jul. 5, 2007 20:05
    IDF kills eleven gunmen in Gaza Strip

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    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    ... From an American and Israeli perspective, we must keep our fingerprints off the direct planning for the Gaza counteroffensive, which will take at least a year to prepare. We should finance the Jordanians, Egyptians, and Sunni Gulf states to provide training, advisors, and equipment to the abysmal Fatah security forces. All of those nations have a vested interest in eliminating the unholy alliance between Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Iranian Quds organization. However, direct American or Israeli involvement in the conflict would likely be the kiss of death for Fatah.

    It will likely take at least a year for Fatah to be ready to launch a counter-attack in Gaza. The Fatah security forces must be instilled with pride, training and discipline to match Hamas. They need to gain confidence in their reformed political leadership; if Fatah can reform, and that is a big if, the Israelis have to accept the fact that, to win in a stand up fight, Fatah will need a reasonable amount of tanks and some attack helicopters. The quantity of such weapons needed to retake Gaza would never pose even a minimal threat to Israel, but the thought of such weapons in the hands of any Palestinians in any amount has long been anathema to the Israelis ...
    I'm sorry, but this sounds like the exact same failed strategy that was just pursued, just with tanks and attack helicopters.
    Last edited by tequila; 07-06-2007 at 09:03 AM.

  7. #67
    Council Member tequila's Avatar
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    Default Hamas to show an Improved Hand

    Hamas to show an Improved Hand - Wall Street Journal, 30 July.

    When the Islamist group Hamas conquered the Gaza Strip in June it seized an intelligence-and-military infrastructure created with U.S. help by the security chiefs of the Palestinian territory's former ruler.

    According to current and former Israeli intelligence officials, former U.S. intelligence personnel and Palestinian officials, Hamas has increased its inventory of arms since the takeover of Gaza and picked up technical expertise -- such as espionage techniques -- that could assist the group in its fight against Israel or Washington's Palestinian allies, the Fatah movement founded by Yasser Arafat.

    Hamas leaders say they acquired thousands of paper files, computer records, videos, photographs and audio recordings containing valuable and potentially embarrassing intelligence information gathered by Fatah. For more than a decade, Fatah operated a vast intelligence network in Gaza established under the tutelage of the Central Intelligence Agency.

    Hamas leaders are expected as early as tomorrow to go public with some of the documents and the secrets they hold.

    The exact nature of the threat posed by the intelligence grab in Gaza -- including any damage to U.S. intelligence operations in the Palestinian territories and the broader Middle East -- is difficult to ascertain. U.S. and Israeli officials generally tried to play down any losses, saying any intelligence damage is likely minimal.

    But a number of former U.S. intelligence officials, including some who have worked closely with the Palestinians, said there was ample reason to worry that Hamas has acquired access to important spying technology as well as intelligence information that could be helpful to Hamas in countering Israeli and U.S. efforts against the group.

    "People are worried, and reasonably so, about what kind of intelligence losses we may have suffered," said one former U.S. intelligence official with extensive experience in Gaza ...

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    ICG, 2 Aug 07: After Gaza
    ...The new government is taking steps to reform the security situation, international support soon will flow into the West Bank and, with a new spirit of cooperation, Israel is expected to ease the situation and, perhaps, agree to political talks – all of which could put Hamas in a bind. It needs help to keep Gaza afloat and if there are palpable improvements in the West Bank coupled with a credible political process, it will not be easy to condemn Abbas as a collaborator. Instead, Hamas might be accused of holding Gazans hostage while other Palestinians moved toward greater prosperity and freedom.

    But, like others before it, this elegant scenario is flawed. It ignores Hamas’s political weight and assumes it will either surrender or retreat. Nothing in its history or worldview suggests this is even remotely possible. Hamas is confident the strategy cannot work, and banks on Israeli obstructionism, U.S. bias and EU fecklessness, together with Fatah internal rivalries, corruption and fragmentation.296 West Bankers are desperate for improvements in their lives but some argue that, in a familiar pattern, whatever support Abbas receives will be enough to tag him as a collaborator, not enough to gain him popular support. There is also the usual clumsiness associated with such strategies: loud Israeli proclamations that the goal is to help Palestinian “moderates” – a certain way to discredit Abbas – coupled with pro-Fatah favouritism in prisoner releases, a guarantee to provoke charges of selling out other Palestinians.

    Even success would have drawbacks. The more successful the strategy of choking off Gaza and rewarding the West Bank, the greater will be Hamas’s motivation to sabotage it. With no Palestinian consensus, progress will create its own threats....

  9. #69
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default But what should we do about Hamas?

    St. Petersburg Times Opinion by Carnegie Moscow Center's resident scholar
    Alexei Malashenko:

    Why did President Mahmoud Abbas come to Moscow? The visit — his fifth, or by some accounts, sixth — had originally been planned for an earlier date, but Abbas postponed the trip due to turbulent events at home.

    Abbas can only win from the Moscow visit. Russian authorities had no plans to saddle the president of the Palestinian Authority with new projects and proposals. The Kremlin also made Abbas’ life easier by avoiding any discussion that the Palestinians should behave more diplomatically toward Israel.

    To be sure, Russia is in no position to offer its own original plan for settling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This “stagnation” in Middle East initiatives began during the Soviet era, when it became clear that there were no viable alternatives to the Camp David summits.

    So Abbas did not come to Moscow so much to listen to Russia’s ideas and plans. His real interest, as always, was to receive military, technical and financial assistance. Moscow promised all three. President Vladimir Putin even promised Abbas 50 armored personnel carriers, but only on the condition that he not use them in the internal Palestinian conflict.

    Why should this be a surprise? It is well known that this is not the first time Moscow has attempted to position itself as an intermediary between followers of radical Islam and everybody else — that is to say, Europe and the United States.
    More at the link

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    Default Israelis declare Gaza 'hostile'

    The people of Gaza held a free and fair election (or as close to that goal as you are likely to get in that part of the world) and elected to dump the corrupt Fatah government and give Hamas a go. Naively they may have hoped that this would have improved their lot but it has only made matters worse as Israel has withheld the taxes collected from the Gazans which they should have paid to the duly elected government to provide essential services. To add insult to injury Israel, the US and EU have all attempted to subvert the peoples choice and constitution by dealing with Fatah as if they were a legitimate representative of the Gazan people. The Gazans are unhappy with their plight but not fooled by who is responsible they blame Israel and the west not Hamas. Gaza is a giant refugee camp whose people are prevented from working, trading or administering its self and it is to our collective fault.
    Now “Israelis declare Gaza 'hostile' “
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7002576.stm
    I would be too!

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    The free and fair elections are open to considerable debate and inquiry IMO and I'm all for self-assertion on the palestinians part. Destroying perfectly good buildings simply because Jews had used them then abandoned them is I think an example of self assertion on the part of the palestinians.

  12. #72
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    The free and fair elections are open to considerable debate and inquiry IMO and I'm all for self-assertion on the palestinians part. Destroying perfectly good buildings simply because Jews had used them then abandoned them is I think an example of self assertion on the part of the palestinians.
    Sorry but get it right. The Israelis have destroyed, stripped, and even flattened every building they pulled out of going back to trheir withdrawal from Sinai under Camp David. They did in on the West Bank and they did it in Gaza--the cxommon theme was that they did not want "Arabs" to get the buildings.

    Tom

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    Default Gaza disengagement

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    The free and fair elections are open to considerable debate and inquiry IMO and I'm all for self-assertion on the palestinians part. Destroying perfectly good buildings simply because Jews had used them then abandoned them is I think an example of self assertion on the part of the palestinians.
    The 2006 elections were certainly free and fair--Fateh lost them because of corruption, poor governance, a weak economy, and its failure to deliver in the peace process. It also ran a very poor campaign (running more candidates than there were seats in most districts, for example).

    As for destroying buildings in the Gaza settlements after Israeli disengagement, this is a rather more complex issue. It was generally recognized that the settler housing was inappropriate in size, shape, and layout for Palestinian families, and that in many cases its recurrent costs (maintenance and previous subsidies) were beyond the abilities of the much poorer Gaza population. Selling the houses to wealthier Palestinians was looked at, but had a number of potential negaitive consequences too. The result was the decision to destroy the houses to use the land more efficiently--it wasn't my recommendation, but it was far from irrational.

    In any case, Israel wanted them destroyed too, and tore most of them down, in part to avoid pictures of "victorious" Palestinians raising Hamas flag over abandoned settler buildings.

    The productive parts of the settlements (the greenhouses) were kept intact for a while, but poor PA policing led to looting, and Israeli border closures prevented the PA from exporting the produce (despite agreement to facilitate this). They finally fell into disuse and destruction.

    (I was a team leader for the initial World Bank study on Gaza disengagement, and participated in some of the early discussion with the Israeli government on this issue.)

    Incidentally, the World Bank has just released its latest update on conditions in the Palestinian territories.

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    I would expect IDF to destroy what was theirs to destroy and leave no bunker, no outpost, no C&C sites, nothing they occupied to those who in turn could use said buildings in their fight against Israel. IDF certainly wasn't in retreat and forced to provide for their enemies, that's for sure.

    Rex's comments on the vineyards and settler's homes pretty much sums up where I'm coming from. That perfectly good, well built homes would be torn down to better utilize land pushes the limits of credibility to the maximum and leaves an old country boy like me scratching his head, and frankly, laughing. It must have been darn hard, labor intensive work digging up those foundations and cement floors in order to grow some vegetables. I find it astounding to be asked to assume that wealthier Palestinians might find the shape, size and layout of Jewish homes to be suitable but not so for poor palestinians. One could conclude that Palestinians had adequate housing to begin with then, knowing as I do from real-world experience that well built homes are warmer and provide better shelter than tents and poorly built homes, often referred to as shacks where I come from.

    If goods from greenhouses couldn't be exported, they could be consumed but the fact of the matter is the greenhouses were destroyed very, very quickly because they were owned by Jews. That is xenophobic, plain and simple and runs contrary to the popular myth that palestinians are complete and total victims of the evil Israelis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    I would expect IDF to destroy what was theirs to destroy and leave no bunker, no outpost, no C&C sites, nothing they occupied to those who in turn could use said buildings in their fight against Israel.
    No, they destroyed most everything (excepting the greenhouses). Senior Israeli officials indicated that this was, in large part, for reasons of political symbolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    Rex's comments on the vineyards and settler's homes pretty much sums up where I'm coming from. That perfectly good, well built homes would be torn down to better utilize land pushes the limits of credibility to the maximum and leaves an old country boy like me scratching his head, and frankly, laughing.
    Israeli housing in Gaza was heavily subsidized, and its maintenance costs were designed around smaller families with much, MUCH higher incomes, not larger families with much smaller incomes. The average Palestinian family couldn't have afforded to maintain the houses (there was no real disagreement on this among any of the local or international housing experts), nor would it have been a very efficient use of high-value land.

    Quote Originally Posted by goesh View Post
    If goods from greenhouses couldn't be exported, they could be consumed but the fact of the matter is the greenhouses were destroyed very, very quickly because they were owned by Jews.
    Actually, there was a pretty good harvest from the greenhouses the first year--while some were looted immediately, most of them weren't destroyed until later. Many of the greenhouses were configured for cut flower production (no market for that in Gaza!), or the high-end vegetable export market. What can't be exported often can't be sold domestically, since it spoils as the Israelis hold it at the border. What could be sold domestically was, but the lack of access to export markets nonetheless had serious implications for profitability. (Again, one has to recognize that settler industry and agriculture in Gaza wasn't always very economic to begin with, since it was based on a number of implicit Israeli subsidies.)

    I'm not suggesting the PA handled the settlements well--actually, I think they did a very poor job. Ineffective site security and consequent looting was particularly problematic, reflecting the weak state of the PA security services.

    I am suggesting that it was all rather more complicated than your comments would indicate.
    Last edited by Rex Brynen; 09-21-2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason: fixing typos yet again

  16. #76
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    I would expect IDF to destroy what was theirs to destroy and leave no bunker, no outpost, no C&C sites, nothing they occupied to those who in turn could use said buildings in their fight against Israel. IDF certainly wasn't in retreat and forced to provide for their enemies, that's for sure....

    I find it astounding to be asked to assume that wealthier Palestinians might find the shape, size and layout of Jewish homes to be suitable but not so for poor palestinians. One could conclude that Palestinians had adequate housing to begin with then, knowing as I do from real-world experience that well built homes are warmer and provide better shelter than tents and poorly built homes, often referred to as shacks where I come from.
    Goesh,

    The "country boy" wisdom does not apply. The Israeli settler movement organized, nurtured, and financed by large scale manipulation of tourism monies under Ariel Sharon as Minister of Tourism recieved government subsidized housing and then destroyed it when the Israeli govenment pulled backj from Sinai, and later areas of the West Bank and then Gaza. The Israeli government was supposed to under the Camp David accords turn over non-military facilties in Sinai like the resorts at Sharm. Much was destroyed purely for the very same reasons you attribue purely to the Palestinians. When it comes to acts of stupidity that only further crystalize extremes, the right wing in Israel--especially as represented in the settler movement is every bit as radical as Hamas.

    Tom
    UN White Card 9192 OGL 1987 OGE 1988
    Last edited by Tom Odom; 09-21-2007 at 12:17 AM.

  17. #77
    Council Member sgmgrumpy's Avatar
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    Default IDF to destroy what was theirs

    Tom,

    I don't know about resorts, but when 1-505 "first in to Sinai in 1982, I will never forget being stationed up on SCC-6 which was the North Control Station and the day the IDF was to pull out of sector they brought D-9 bulldozers to the top and down the mountain all the buildings went

    Unfortunetely they did not take out the many mine fields in the area before they left

    Thank God they did not demo the beach resort, that's where all the R&R action was

  18. #78
    Council Member Tom Odom's Avatar
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    2-505 1978-1980

    That was a consistent pattern and I understood it when it came to military facilities. Where I did not understand it and grew tired of it was when agreements were reached to preclude further destruction, one or both sides just could not resist--and then would bill the US for the aftermath. Again it the cycle of violence here is very much a self-licking ice cream cone; if it has to happen, it need not be funded with US dollars to any party.

    I loved Sinai and the Red Sea of Sharm was spectacular snorkeling--it was like skydiving without a plane or a parachute when you swam over the lip of the reef and lo9oked down.

    Best

    Tom

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    Default Gaza's Homemade Rockets

    From CBC.ca

    PETER ARMSTRONG: MIDEAST DISPATCH
    Gaza's homemade rockets
    A visit with Islamic Jihad militants at their makeshift rocket factory
    November 26, 2007
    Comes with both text and video.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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    ICG, 20 Dec 07: Inside Gaza: The Challenge of Clans and Families
    Throughout Gaza’s history, its powerful clans and families have played a part whose importance has fluctuated with the nature of central authority but never disappeared. As the Palestinian Authority (PA) gradually collapsed under the weight of almost a decade of renewed confrontation with Israel, they, along with political movements and militias, filled the void. Today they are one of the most significant obstacles Hamas faces in trying to consolidate its authority and reinstate stability in the territory it seized control of in June 2007. Although they probably lack the unity or motivation to become a consistent and effective opposition, either on their own or in alliance with Fatah, they could become more effective should popular dissatisfaction with the situation in Gaza grow. There are some, as yet inconclusive, indications that Hamas understands this and is moderating its approach in an attempt to reach an accommodation.

    It has been six months since Hamas took control of Gaza, and, despite recent suggestions of possible reconciliation talks with Fatah, the geographic split of Palestinian territories risks enduring. Israel’s tightening siege and continued conflict between Hamas and the Ramallah based government have imposed exceptional hardship on Gazans, seriously crippling the Islamists’ ability to govern and fostering popular dissatisfaction. As a result, Hamas is focused on more achievable priorities, including restoring law and order after a period of tremendous chaos.

    The role of clans and families is central to this task. Over recent years, their growing influence has been a double edged sword. By providing a social safety net to numerous needy Gazans in a time of uncertainty, they helped prevent a total collapse, yet they simultaneously contributed to the mounting disorder. Although they have filled the void resulting from the judiciary’s breakdown, they have done more than most to promote lawlessness.....
    Complete 32 page paper at the link.

    Edit to add: I just recalled this older (Sep 04) paper from ICG - Who Governs the West Bank? - that also speaks to some of these same clan and family influences. Discussion of "Informal Networks" begins on page 18 of the 43 page pdf.
    Last edited by Jedburgh; 12-21-2007 at 02:29 PM.

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