Hamas in Gaza (merged thread)

[sullygoarmy]

One of the bigger mistakes I think we made in past dealing with Hamas was not recognizing them when they won their election. To me, it is a case of "be careful what you wish for". They wanted to be the leaders of an "elected" government and got it. We immediately reacted by refusing to recognize the legitimacy of their election because of their terrorist ties.

I wonder what would have happened if we had recognized the results and gave Hamas enough rope to try and run a legitimate government? The way I see it one of two things would have happened: 1) they would have been successful and possibly made the Palestinian state into a more efficient entity or 2) fallen flat on their faces and voted out of power by the people, creating more long-term damage against Hamas then we could have ever hoped for.

[William F. Owen]

We immediately reacted by refusing to recognize the legitimacy of their election because of their terrorist ties.

...and why is that a problem? Hitler died the democratically elected, by IIRC some 19 million Germans. If a National Socialist Party was elected in Austria, with deeply racist views, should the US recognise it, just because of the will of the Austrian people?

IMO, internationally acceptable behaviour and norms should not be subservient to the democratic process. If Hamas can accept the norms of the international community, then they should be recognised. If not, no dice.

[tranquill]

Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israel...-momentum-5424

[William F. Owen]

Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israel...-momentum-5424

...errr from Samson Blinded? Ask Rex about those guys.
Try a reputable Israeli source like Ynet or Ha'Aretz (Haaretz)

[Rex Brynen]

...errr from Samson Blinded? Ask Rex about those guys.
Try a reputable Israeli source like Ynet or Ha'Aretz (Haaretz)

You beat me to it, Wilf!

[Jedburgh]

From CBC.ca

Comes with both text and video.

Here's another one, from Wired's Danger Room: Video: Inside a Gaza D.I.Y. Rocket Lab

.....watch this remarkable video report from Zouheir Alnajjar, an Algerian-born guerrilla journalist who now lives in the Gaza Strip. In it, a pair of Palestinian militants lead him, blindfolded, into their D.I.Y. rocket-building lab. Then they show him how they make their weapons, out of fertilizer and scrap metal......

[yusra]

Regarding the "most densely populated" question: What is correct is that Jabalia refugee camp in North Gaza is the most densely populated place on earth, where over 110,000 Palestinian refugees live in an area 1.5 square kilometres. They lost their homes in Southern Palestine (now Southern Israel) in 1948.

[Rex Brynen]

Regarding the "most densely populated" question: What is correct is that Jabalia refugee camp in North Gaza is the most densely populated place on earth, where over 110,000 Palestinian refugees live in an area 1.5 square kilometres. They lost their homes in Southern Palestine (now Southern Israel) in 1948.

I'm just being pedantic here, but at 76,207 persons per square km (UNRWA), Jabalia is nowhere near the most densely populated urban area on earth.

Having been to several Gaza refugee camps, and having lived in downtown Cairo, the latter is much more densely populated (around 136,000/km2).

Parts of New York are over 110,000 /km2, and parts of Mumbai over 150,000 /km2. Parts of Hong Kong city (not territory) are 1,924,263 /km2, or 26 times more dense than Jabalia. You'll find some comparative statistics here.

This isn't to say that Gaza isn't very crowded—it is. It also has a very young population (63% are aged 19 or younger, and 39% are under aged 10 according to the 1997 census). As a result, military operations there are akin to a shoot-out in a primary school—with all the inevitable resulting human tragedy.

[JJackson]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...09_amnesty.pdf

BBC coverage


Israel-Hamas arms embargo urged
Palestinians run for cover during an Israeli strike over a UN school in Beit Lahia, 17/01
Israel has denied allegations of illegal use of white phosphorus rounds

Amnesty International has called for a freeze on arms sales to Israel and Palestinian groups such as Hamas following the recent Gaza conflict.

The human rights group said it had evidence both Israel and Hamas had used weapons sourced from overseas to carry out attacks on civilians.

full story http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904929.stm

[jmm99]

When I saw the photo on an "anti-war" blog, I immediately thought "it has to be Palestinian disinformation" - until I followed the link to Ha'aretz.

I came from a household in which Bobby Briscoe - and Chaim Herzog (Dublin-born) - were positive figures. This T-shirt disturbed me, even though I realize that "Psychologically speaking, this is one of the ways in which soldiers project their anger, frustration and violence." (quote from Dr Levy in the article).

[Entropy]

JMM,

Just my opinion here, but it seems to me the Israeli-Arab conflict is descending into deeper levels of dehumanization on both sides. WILF may disagree with me here, but the conflict more resembles a perpetual tribal blood fued as much as anything else.

[Uboat509]

When I saw the photo on an "anti-war" blog, I immediately thought "it has to be Palestinian disinformation" - until I followed the link to Ha'aretz.

I came from a household in which Bobby Briscoe - and Chaim Herzog (Dublin-born) - were positive figures. This T-shirt disturbed me, even though I realize that "Psychologically speaking, this is one of the ways in which soldiers project their anger, frustration and violence." (quote from Dr Levy in the article).

Joe is Joe, no matter what army he is in. This is par for the course. Joe always wants people to know what a bad-ass tough guy he is. If you look at the shirts you see Joe wearing here, you will see common themes. Skulls wearing berets is popular. So are bladed weapons for some reason. Often there are "cool" slogans like "mess with the best, die like the rest". There are also a lot of themes that might be considered inappropriate or even offensive. Commanders dont typicaly let Joe wear that kind ofnstuff on duty but Joe still loves to wear it when he's off. Other than raising the overall level of cheese I don't really think that it has any real effect nor is it a reliable indicator of Joe's capacity for violence.

SFC W

[patmc]

Apr 1, 2009 0:01 | Updated Apr 1, 2009 16:34
Hamas reportedly planning military staff college
By YAAKOV KATZ

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

To counter their poor performance in the recent Gaza operation, Hamas is considering a command and staff college for its leaders. Only future promotion and command boards will determine if non-resident Hamas CGSC officers will stay competetive with their peers.