XM25 "good enough"

[ODB]

but I'll lay it out here. Many dicussions throughout the SWJ revolve around weapons. Everyone talks about the ideal round, ideal lethality, ideal caliber, firing rates, etc..... Finally someone brought up one of my biggest pet peeves (Thanks Coldstreamer). POSITIVE ID. At what distance with the naked eye can a soldier positively ID (PID) his threat in any environment? Yes, the environment makes a difference and I know all the associated factors. For arguements sake let's say open desert:

1. In local attire carrying an AK or RPG?

2. In local attire hiding an AK or RPG under his clothes?

3. In military uniform carrying an AK or RPG?

4. In military uniform with no weapon visable?

Aditionally lets use the same constraints with common current optics found within our force.

1. ACOG 4x power

2. M68 or EOTECH 0x power

3. Binos (showing my age by allowing the old M22) 7x50

4. Thermals (lightweight)

5. ELCAN M145 3.4x power

Staying in the daylight only realm, night becomes a completely different story.

I'm not talking capabilities with sniper teams and other specialties. Most discussions center around the "force" in general.

Additionally this changes based on the fight your in. Yes one can PID someone shooting from a much further distance or can they?

Based on being able to PID your target then what becomes the ideal weapon systems?

As far as anything 25mm, 40 mm or whatever the hell the next great idea fairy dreams up, maybe they should look at an effective way to train Soldiers on the weapon system. M203/M79 (yes they are still around) is the most underutilized weapon in the inventory. No one gets ammo to train with it and since this has been the case for too many years no one knows how to use it. I love seeing the deer in the headlight look when I ask why they do not have "hold off" markings taped onto their sling. Before we keep throwing new weapons, ammo, technology at the "force", we need to be able to ensure it can be effectively trained and therefore utilized to it's full capability.

[Ken White]

Both y'all have good points -- and I'll add that the 40mm is really great for bringing a car that tries to speed through a checkpoint to a screeching halt if you drop one about 15m ahead of him or her.

And nothing beats a .50 cal for deterring people inside buildings in most of the world.

Hadn't considered the noise angle with Arabs but I can definitely visualize it -- and the eye rolls at us being nice.

While all the HE grenades are essentially defensive weapons, the launchers do have uses in the offense and they need to be available because one never knows when an offensive move will get turned into a hasty or temporary defense; same reason we carry frags in the attack and Offensive Grenades are rare beasts.

Same old stuff, though -- Training and METT-TC. Always gets back to those two...

[Firn]

Some very interesting posts. I like the way the counterintuitive but yet logical consequence of a controlled demostration of loud and messy firepower can help to fulfill the objectives.

Any news about the performance of the XM25?


Firn

[jcustis]

I love seeing the deer in the headlight look when I ask why they do not have "hold off" markings taped onto their sling.

I've never heard of that technique either. What does it involve?

[jmm99]

so ODB or Ken can shell both of us - windage and elevation clicks + ?

from a target shooter only. According to a Marine friend (Vnam vintage), you also get into the target's speed and angular attitude with respect to the shooter (1/2 body width, full body width, etc., leads).

Regards

Mike

[Ken White]

From the book:

f. Marked-Sling Method. To use this method, the grenadier must--

(1) Loosen the sling, assume a kneeling position, and place the forward foot in the sling.

(2) Ensure the sling is taut and vertical between the front sling swivel and the boot. If not, the rounds will impact at a greater range than desired. To check this, tie one end of a string or thread to a weight, such as a cartridge case, and tie the other to the sling swivel. Let it hang freely, and align the edge of the sling with it to ensure the sling is vertical.

(3) Fire several rounds to determine the desired range.

(4) Where the sling is held to the ground by the foot, mark the sling with colored tape, paint, ink, or whatever is available. Mark the position of the buckles so that, if either is moved, the grenadier can return them to their original positions and be assured of constant range accuracy.

(5) If the sling gets wet, it may stretch or shrink, indirectly causing the rounds to impact closer or farther than desired.

LINK.

[Uboat509]

Actually, hold offs refers to the point of aim for that weapon at a given distance. The idea is to know what your point of aim is so that you don't have to adjust the sites.

SFC W

[Firn]

From the book:

f. Marked-Sling Method. To use this method, the grenadier must--

(1) Loosen the sling, assume a kneeling position, and place the forward foot in the sling.

(2) Ensure the sling is taut and vertical between the front sling swivel and the boot. If not, the rounds will impact at a greater range than desired. To check this, tie one end of a string or thread to a weight, such as a cartridge case, and tie the other to the sling swivel. Let it hang freely, and align the edge of the sling with it to ensure the sling is vertical.

(3) Fire several rounds to determine the desired range.

(4) Where the sling is held to the ground by the foot, mark the sling with colored tape, paint, ink, or whatever is available. Mark the position of the buckles so that, if either is moved, the grenadier can return them to their original positions and be assured of constant range accuracy.

(5) If the sling gets wet, it may stretch or shrink, indirectly causing the rounds to impact closer or farther than desired.

LINK.

Shouldn't it mean shorter range, or do I get this wrong?

Firn