XM25 "good enough"

**William F. Owen** · 11-29-2009

Originally Posted by Firn

I agree that this would be a rather interesting technique especially with the low-velocity 40x46 grenade. You could cover a range of 50 to 400m with with the classic low-arc indirect fire and plunging one. This could bridge some gaps left by the heavier and more efficient mortar fire support from further away.

No need. 40mmx46 medium velocity has been with us for 4 years now. Shoots to 800m, with 30% more blast, from an M-203 or M79 type. The reason it's not in service is purely one of bureaucracy, as far as I can tell. It's certainly no secret and the infantry fire support topic for some time.

Light Mortars are excellent. Not as inaccurate as commonly supposed, very fast into action, and very high rate of fire. Because they don't "fire blanks" on exercise, everyone underestimates their importance. All you need for sights is an "Inclinometer" and something to align the weapon with. There are even computer training packages for them.

I used to carry the 51mm as a Platoon Sergeant.

**Firn** · 11-29-2009

An interesting debate.

I envisioned not a true light mortar but a GL which could be used to aid the squad/element to fulfill their task. IMHO a true organic mortar support should always be available, best if coming from a location which can be easily supplied with ammunition and as heavy as sensible. Commando and light mortars are certainly excellent tools if more efficient mortar support can not be delivered. Kiwigrunt's points are pretty much spot on.

I also considered the low velocity of the classic 40mm grenade fitting because it would be ideal for short to medium plunging fire. But all things considered the medium velocity one seems to be the far better choice. A good inclinometer would be of course an ideal and even cheap and rather light solution. I do not know if the modern sights on the new GLs coming out are able to cover the whole reach of the faster grenades - so the inclinometer could also be valuable for the longer ranges. The IR lights Schmedlap mentioned could have one included.

To come back to the original topic. Part of the promise of the XM25 is that you can engage an enemy in a room or behind a wall thanks to ranged airbursting. Perhaps we will see the XM25 grenade's airbursting modes also in the 40mm grenades. But thanks to modern sights and aiming systems the not so fancy 40mm can already be very accurate.

To use this great accuracy and the great versatility offered by the large variety of rounds one needs also an experienced hand and a good supply of ammuntion. So sometimes one might have to sacrifice some other weight/firepower to carry more rounds for this weapon.

Firn

**Schmedlap** · 11-29-2009

I guess I just don't understand what need is being fulfilled by the XM25.

It would be neat to be able to hit a guy hiding behind a berm with an airburst. I can think of zero occasions when I needed to do this. Anyone else? Even if there were a handful of cases, is this narrow range of uses worth the extra weight, bulk, new lines of ammo and parts, and the re-training that would be necessary?

There were a few occasions when there was someone in a building who needed to be killed before the building could be assaulted. That's why we train to put 40mm through windows. It's surprisingly easy.

**jcustis** · 11-29-2009

It would be neat to be able to hit a guy hiding behind a berm with an airburst. I can think of zero occasions when I needed to do this. Anyone else?

I can think of several times in Iraq where that would have been appropriate. In Afghanistan (headed there next), isn't that what wall-fighting is all about?

**Firn** · 11-29-2009

I guess that only the battlefield can decide if the system XM25 is worth it. Perhaps it would be helpful to test it as a support weapon for the platoon and not as an substitution of one UGL at the squad level. I gave it a quick glance the target acquisition/fire control system coupled with 4x Thermals sounds quite impressive. If only that works it would be a nice addition to any platoon

Wikipedia gives it a rundown:

Target acquisition/fire control (XM104).

* Weight: 2.54 lbs
* 4x thermal sight with zoom.
* 2x direct view optical sight.
* Ballistic computer.
* Digital compass.
* Laser rangefinder.
* Ammunition fuze setter.
* Environmental sensors.

So you could use it to generate good target solutions for the other weapon systems (mortar, sharpshooter, artillery, GL...)

Other than that it might be used also as rifled shotgun on steroids. If the gun itself works one could give the gunner always some slugs.

Firn

**Firn** · 11-30-2009

I gave the XM-25 now a closer look from my armchair. The decision to drop the rifle part seems to be very sensible. You have a far less heavy and cumbersome weapon without another 2kg + hanging under the center and front of the grenade launcher. It focuses the scope of the weapon on supporting the riflemen and does away with the rather naive vision that every grunt will have one.

The design and the choice of the caliber should allow the grenadier to use it as his sole long weapon - looking at it also as a bulky 5-gauge rifled shotgun with a huge sight. A light pistol as a sidearm might still be a wise choice, at least until one can be certain of its mettle. This GL will fire slugs just fine and perhaps one could make buckshot work in it. Rifled barrels spread buck much more than smooth ones, at 10m they will be all over a torso. To reduce the weight of the self defense ammuniton sabots could be used instead of full-size slugs. It should be easy to design a breeching round for it.

So it covers quite some needs. It might also intimidating than a M-4, and can make a visible and messy statement in the same way Schmedlap's guys used the 40mm. It should do it's work from closer (arming) and longer distances than the M203. The long barrel ought to give not only good range, but also a more moderate muzzle report. Relative quick semi-automatic shooting should be possible due to the lighter recoil and the rather heavy weapon.

Just some quick rambeling...

Firn