XM25 "good enough"

[DMR]

12 pounds?

Ok let's ask a few questions:
1. What are the dimensions and weight of one mag. How many can a soldier carry before they bulk out=basic load.

2. At twelve pounds plus basic load their is no way the soldier is also going to have a M-4. Pistol becomes a manditory addition. This = Army has to buy more pistols or transfer pistols from someone that has them now.

3. 1 per fireteam would seem to mean either the M-203/320 or the Rifleman have to go. That position will become the XM-25 gunner.

4. At least in the current generation it is two bulky to "tuckaway" somewhere so a soldier could at least carry an M-4 with one or two mags to defend them selves.

So we end up with a every specilized weapon that may go bing for ammo in the average fire fight very quickly and the soldier is running around (you would hope) with at least a M-9 to defend themselves.

If they add them to the current MTOE's in a Arms Room fashion, ie. I'm going to leave the M-320's at home today because we will be operating mounted, then maybe, but for the oppertunity cost I would have to say no thanks.

[TAH]

12 pounds?

Ok let's ask a few questions:
1. What are the dimensions and weight of one mag. How many can a soldier carry before they bulk out=basic load.

2. At twelve pounds plus basic load their is no way the soldier is also going to have a M-4. Pistol becomes a manditory addition. This = Army has to buy more pistols or transfer pistols from someone that has them now.

3. 1 per fireteam would seem to mean either the M-203/320 or the Rifleman have to go. That position will become the XM-25 gunner.

4. At least in the current generation it is two bulky to "tuckaway" somewhere so a soldier could at least carry an M-4 with one or two mags to defend them selves.

So we end up with a every specilized weapon that may go bing for ammo in the average fire fight very quickly and the soldier is running around (you would hope) with at least a M-9 to defend themselves.

If they add them to the current MTOE's in a Arms Room fashion, ie. I'm going to leave the M-320's at home today because we will be operating mounted, then maybe, but for the oppertunity cost I would have to say no thanks.

It also means two fewer Soliders in each rifle sqaud capable of shooting 5.56 in support of the operation. 6 fewer per Plt and 18 fewer per company. Adds up quick!

[Rifleman]

Seems like one per squad would be a better idea.

And since trying to conduct an enveloping attack with one fire team in a nine-man squad is a usually a fantasty anyway it won't matter that the fire teams aren't balanced.

Maybe a different story if the squad is reinforced but usually they're understrength.

[120mm]

Note that in the article they are calling for 36 per battalion. It should be easy enough to figure out at what level they are being deployed based on that number.

[Rifleman]

For light TOEs 36 per battalion sounds like one per rifle squad plus three unassigned in the company arms room.

One weapon like that per fire team is just too much in small Army squads. Too many suppression weapons equals not enough riflemen to clear with.

Now, if the Army squad would just get rid of one of the SAWs. One light machine gunner, one grenadier and six or seven riflemen would be better. Balanced fire teams made better sense in the days of the BAR and M1, especially in big USMC squads.

[TAH]

For light TOEs 36 per battalion sounds like one per rifle squad plus three unassigned in the company arms room.

One weapon like that per fire team is just too much. Too many suppression weapons equals not enough riflemen to clear with.

According to the May 2010 version of the Fort Knox Special Manual on BCTs,

An Infantry Bn has 15 M320 in its HHC, 20 M320s in each of three rifle companies and 16 in its Wespons Co, for a total of 91 in the Bn.

So, it is clearly NOT a 1 for 1 swap.

[Uboat509]

It looks like one per squad but I still don't see the point. According to Wikipedia the system weighs 14 pounds but it doesn't say if that is loaded or empty. I am guessing empty. It gives the weight of the Target acquisition/fire control but does not say if that weight is included or not. Logic would suggest that it is included in the weight of the system but since this data apparently comes from the company who is trying to market it to the military, logic may not apply. There is no weight given for the ammo. There has been no data that I have seen on the effective burst radius of the round. I also have questions about what will happen when the highspeed optics fail. I would like to know what secondary weapon the gunner is supposed to carry. Most importantly, I would like to know why we need this. This appears to be a very narrow niche weapon. It appears that it can only really do one thing that the M203 can't. Is it really worth the cost or could that money be better spent elsewhere?

[Firn]

You know, it need not...all it would take is a graduated level that could attach to the side of the mil-std 1913 Picatinny rail. Our current M224 60mm has that built into the firing assembly. It just needs to be small, lit by a tritium ampule, and could clip on via any number of attachment means that are already in use for side-mounted sling swivels.

A couple rounds to get the thing zeroed and locked down with Loctite, and there you have it. No need to fiddle with a sling marking system that would rely on the grenadier to pause and adjust it to the appropriate length for use. There would be slight variation due to the surface the buttstock rests on (sand, gravel, boot tip, etc.). The only thing limiting this setup would be the degree of accuracy required in the requirement document, as it related to mounting the sight to the rail, adjusting the rail in relation to the launcher receiver, etc.

We might never get there due to tight tolerances required by whomever would generate the specifications, but my light bulb just clicked on.

Somebody's light bulb clicked on a little earlier, and designed the (rifle ) grenade sight T59, for the use of low-angle and high-angle fire. It could be fitted to pretty much every US WWII rifle and carbine.

Slings were already marked with tape in WWII, usually with the aid of a clinometer. When used in the high-angle role, an additional, rimmed .45 propulsion cartridge was inserted into the launcher tube.

The interesting thing about rifle grenades was the broad range of uses, already in WWII. Here are just some of the lesser known ones:

- After removing the detonator, a 30-yard cordtex (explosive 1/4 inch cord) was tied to the (Mills) rifle grenade and shot across the minefield, clearing a long and 8-inch narrow path. By using two such paths 10 feet apart, a cordtex net could be dragged across the minefield to open a 10-feet street (Source: British Commandos, Nr.1 of the often mentioned Special Series)

- "Grapnel" Grenades were first improvised to clear from a covered position trip-wire up to a 100 yards away. A simple AT rifle grenade got almost completely stripped down and a wooden plug with three inserted hooks got fixed with a screw as new head. A heavy 150 yard chalk line was attached and coiled up. ( Combat Lessons 4, WWII series)

- In a similar way com. wire was layed across streams, to up to 130 yards. (Combat lessons 6, WWII series)

- 60mm Mortar bombs were attached by wire and pliers to the grenade projectors M7 and M1 and fire to up to a range of 110 yards. Used to clear houses and hedgerows. (Combat lessons 6, WWII series)

- WP (smoke) rifle grenades with reduced WP charge were used by grenadiers to mark hidden targets, especially for the supporting tanks. (The reduction of the WP avoided the concealment by the very smoke) (Combat lessons x, WWII series)

- Some German rifle grenades could also be thrown by hand, lightening the combat load. This was considered to be very useful for mobile, light units operating far from the next base. ( Other countries had also special rifle adaptors for hand grenades) (Small unit action in Russia)

All in all it seems that the rifle grenade can still be useful in some "odd" or special jobs which need an odd or oversized warhead shape. Breeching, Mine-clearing, Grapnelling are just some of them.

The 40mm grenades at one side of the spectrum and the shoulder-fired weapons on the other seem to cover the big rest well enough. We will see how well the 25mm grenades widen that spectrum.

[Firn]

Somebody's light bulb clicked on a little earlier, and designed the (rifle ) grenade sight T59, for the use of low-angle and high-angle fire. It could be fitted to pretty much every US WWII rifle and carbine.

Slings were already marked with tape in WWII, usually with the aid of a clinometer. When used in the high-angle role, an additional, rimmed .45 propulsion cartridge was inserted into the launcher tube.

The interesting thing about rifle grenades was the broad range of uses, already in WWII. Here are just some of the lesser known ones:

- After removing the detonator, a 30-yard cordtex (explosive 1/4 inch cord) was tied to the (Mills) rifle grenade and shot across the minefield, clearing a long and 8-inch narrow path. By using two such paths 10 feet apart, a cordtex net could be dragged across the minefield to open a 10-feet street (Source: British Commandos, Nr.1 of the often mentioned Special Series)

- "Grapnel" Grenades were first improvised to clear from a covered position trip-wire up to a 100 yards away. A simple AT rifle grenade got almost completely stripped down and a wooden plug with three inserted hooks got fixed with a screw as new head. A heavy 150 yard chalk line was attached and coiled up. ( Combat Lessons 4, WWII series)

- In a similar way com. wire was layed across streams, to up to 130 yards. (Combat lessons 6, WWII series)

- 60mm Mortar bombs were attached by wire and pliers to the grenade projectors M7 and M1 and fire to up to a range of 110 yards. Used to clear houses and hedgerows. (Combat lessons 6, WWII series)

- WP (smoke) rifle grenades with reduced WP charge were used by grenadiers to mark hidden targets, especially for the supporting tanks. (The reduction of the WP avoided the concealment by the very smoke) (Combat lessons x, WWII series)

- Some German rifle grenades could also be thrown by hand, lightening the combat load. This was considered to be very useful for mobile, light units operating far from the next base. ( Other countries had also special rifle adaptors for hand grenades) (Small unit action in Russia)

All in all it seems that the rifle grenade can still be useful in some "odd" or special jobs which need an odd or oversized warhead shape. Breeching, Mine-clearing, Grapnelling are just some of them.

The 40mm grenades at one side of the spectrum and the shoulder-fired weapons on the other seem to cover the big rest well enough. We will see how well the 25mm grenades widen that spectrum.

Der Kampf der Infanterie, the fight of the infantry, a swiss army movie of 1976 is interesting for a couple of things I noticed. Of course the Swiss German makes it rather hard to understand the talking of the soldiers, even for fluent German speakers.

Rifle grenades are featured very often both while defending and attacking, against infantry and AFV.

1) An strongpoint gets attack one of the defender calls out the range, and another adjusts his bipod with engraved range scales on it. Later you see how different defenders engage out of the trench the attacking infantry with massed indirect rifle grenade fire.

2) Armored infantry advances through forests and meadows in alpine terrain and,while still mounted, get attacked by various AT-weapons, like mines, ATM and rifle grenades.

3) Airmobile infantry inserted behind the frontline get counterattacked by infantry supported by MGs, mortars. Some riflemen get tasked to support the advance by using their rifle grenades in the same mini mortar-like role as seen in 1).

The rifle grenades were quite heavy and thus the recoil was wild, making it quite (un)popular in soldier stories. In direct fire the shooter had to be careful to follow the correct procedure.

Overall the greater ease of use of the 40 mm GL as well as the spread of ATM might have been key factors in the decline in popularity of rifle grenades. With training time ever limited it certainly is sensible to focus it on weapons expected to be widly in use.