Pre and post deployment support

[Ken White]

(Sociopath don't quite do it) for me because I think immediately of sociopaths as we think of that term in the criminal justice system - serial criminals (whether murder, rape, robbery or theft), who lack any empathy and are extremely self-centered.

Your prerogative to think of it in that manner -- and logical that you should do so. Not being burdened by being a Lawyer or a Psychologist, I do not have to be so precise. I use the term to indicate those tendencies that mirror your description, lacking empathy and being self centered and I contend that about half the people I have known in an overlong life have those traits to one extent or another. Quite obviously, the full blown legal and psychologically diagnosed Sociopath in the strictest sense of the term is not a desirable person -- and would, as you say, not be good as a Soldier.

However, as I said, we are all blends of numerous pathologies and traits both inherited and acquired so some of the sociopathic tendencies serve to insulate an individual from the horror of war -- or allow him or her to better accept the reality of war and deal with it. I mentioned several experiments that have indicated that those who can accept violence as opposed to those who categorically reject it or are repelled to such an extent that they literally freeze momentarily can be identified by various assessments including MRI scans.

There are personality types (probably galore) who can hack violence - even when it is of the cold-blooded kind. I think of three friends over the years (two still with us in the Copper Country) who were Marine snipers in Nam and who seem to have been relatively untouched by the experience. If anything, it seems to have been a positive thing - that from an outside observer who is not into their heads, but just a guy who drank a fair amount of beer with them.

On the other hand, there are personality types (again probably galore) who cannot hack violence. And, a bunch in between. So, it would seem useful to expand on some personality profiles as you guys know them (no need for shrink jargon).

More elegantly said than by me but that's the point...

I conclude that what you must mean as "sociopathic traits" are different from how I would use the term as a lawyer.

Certainment!

If what Reed said was meant, it seems to me that "sociopathic traits" or lack of same is an issue which is far from off-topic - since the support required will vary with the personality profile (METT-TC, to borrow from you guys).

I'd think so...

[MikeF]

On monday, I'm so gonna find a psychiatrist to explain my sociopathic tendacies in warfare when I positively identify my enemy. It must be something to do with the way my mom treated me as a child.

Reed- despite my lack of humor (my daughter will probably not attend college now that the economic sky has fallen; hopefully, y'all have at least smiled if not laughed so we can get back on topic), I would encourage you to take a knee and allow us to get back to your original discussion.

IMO, Ken is right-outside of his so-called PC crowd. Freudian SME's thought and regard evolved throughout the last 65 years. From shell shock to PTSD to TBIs, advances are being made.

Futhermore, I would assert that the answer to your original question is the typical timeless Ken statement of METT-TC coupled with leadership. A Patreaus/Odierno/Caldwell must be tasked with this very important subject if we hope for some resolve on our wounded (and yes, I have plenty of wounded that I care deeply about).

Initially, Ken was only suggesting that we have a holistic approach during the recruitment process and post-deployment period.

cheers,

mike

[120mm]

My experience has been that the Medical Service Corps has seized the moment to create a bigger niche for themselves in the Army.

The great majority of anger I've experienced, post-deployment, has been righteous anger directed toward this or that weaselly MSC officer putting requirement after requirement on our notably non-combat unit, making it difficult to train/have time with my family.

I am still fully convinced that Army Doctors put a ton of people on "medical hold" primarily to create the Walter Reed crisis and therefore increase their budget/officer staffing.

On a related issue, a co-worker, who has just returned from a year-long non-combat deployment, has been required, along with the rest of his section, to attend PTSD counselling sessions. When he asked to be let out of this un-paid requirement, he was automatically diagnosed with PTSD.

[reed11b]

On a related issue, a co-worker, who has just returned from a year-long non-combat deployment, has been required, along with the rest of his section, to attend PTSD counselling sessions. When he asked to be let out of this un-paid requirement, he was automatically diagnosed with PTSD.

What does your non-combat deployed co-worker do? Feel free to PM me, I may have some insight. I am hearing a lot of animosity towards Army MH, does this extend to VA and Vet Center counselors as well? What about ACS services? While not quite what I was asking for this is still useful.
Reed

[selil]

What does your non-combat deployed co-worker do? Feel free to PM me, I may have some insight. I am hearing a lot of animosity towards Army MH, does this extend to VA and Vet Center counselors as well? What about ACS services? While not quite what I was asking for this is still useful.
Reed

My mother in-law was a senior psychiatrist working at the Richmond Vet Admin hospital with a specialty post traumatic stress disorder. When she retired they moved her entire case load to psychologists. They called her back to consult on several cases because they had so many suddenly having issues. A psychologist is not a psychiatrists no matter what they say. It is a cost saving measure. When she left they were clocking her time (keeping track) which was part of an efficiency metric. I don't know the details and what I've stated is basically all I think I know about it as I'm not that close but there seems to be issues in the system

[AdamG]

Remember all the VFW halls when we were kids, with the old guys from WWII and Korea? The cheap beer, BBQs and BS sessions where a home-brewed version of peer counseling for PTSD.

So these spiffy programs with fresh-faced, shiney happy counselors are going to share exactly what frame of reference with the guys getting off the planes from Kuwait?

If you want to effectively treat PTSD, A) you're going to need BTDT counselors and B) you're going to have to leave the door and/or phone line open for when Joe gets around to admitting to himself "I need to talk to that counselor guy".

Next year will be the second and LAST time I'm demobbing : there'll be one thing on my mind - 1. how fast can we do this Kabuki dance and 2. when do I see my girlfriend? My motivators at that point will be the same as Joe's, even tho' I'm a (comparitively) old guy and I'm aware of the importance of monitoring my own emotional state.

You want to make this work, with limited resources in Alaska? I'd whistle up your state VFW coordinator and work with him to create a gateway for us - so whether it's the day after we get home or three years later, we can reach out for someone to talk to and not necessarily have to do it after two or six pitchers of Bud.

[ODB]

First let me say I do think there are those that truely need help, have come across some of the finest fighting men in the world who have reached there mental limits and broke. On the other hand I see this as the new exit strategy for anyone who does not want to truely earn their paycheck and that ever so popular college money.

In my opinion this doesn't need to be addressed by outside organizations as an all encompassing answer. Nothing pisses me off more than having to get off a plane only to get on a bus to take me to get some screening before I can go home to the family. To many this is a cause of issues more than what they experienced during their deployment. The responsibility truely lies on every single one of us in the service today. It is our responsibility to know our peers, subordinates, and superiors. Only when you know those around you can you tell when something is not right. We are afterall only human and some things affect us differently than others and we all have a breaking point. To think these mental health types can figure some of us out is the best comedy I have come across. An example of this is the fact that a majority of those I work with including myself fail every psychological exam we take, why is this? Am I a sociopath? Ask my wife and she will most definately tell you yes, yet I am not out running around killing people in my spare time. Simple answer is do I have the capability to things many others do not, yes but also do I have a clear cut line drawn on when to use that capability and when not to, yes. I have done it for years, who I am at work is not who I am at home.

I have seen a few who have "broke", the unit moved them into a different position for a while to get their mind right, to come to terms with what they were dealing with, and they are back in the fight as I type this. Unfortunately too many organizations and individuals have their hidden agendas and thus we end up with what we have now.

Just my .02 from what I have experienced.

[Stan]

So these spiffy programs with fresh-faced, shiney happy counselors are going to share exactly what frame of reference with the guys getting off the planes from Kuwait?

Good point Adam. It was just following Zaire's first uprising and civil war and State decided to send us a USG shrink to make sure we were still OK. My boss MAJ D elected I take our Boston Whaler with 90 raging ponies across the river and retrieve the shrink at dusk. As luck would have it, Zaire and Congo were exchanging tracers and the light show was up to its usual fantastic. I think I made it half way across the Zaire river when the shrink hugged the hull and begged to be returned to Brazzaville.

... We (I) never saw him again