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  1. #1
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Default Honor, murder and "the law".

    In "The Whole News" forum, Featherock made a post that has actually been eating away at my thoughts. With the kind permission of the Council, I'd like to explore some of the concepts that are presented in this post. My thinking on this issue is somewhat all over the map, and I figured if someone would shoot holes at it for awhile, I could clarify some of the issues. So, here goes:

    There's no "thinking" about it. The facts are the facts. What he did was against the law, pure and simple. An honor code is just that, a code, a highly subjective set of rules of conduct that different cultures define differently. An honor code is not the same thing as the rule of law as codified in instruments like the Geneva Conventions. For instance, a Marine wouldn't be tried in court for leaving behind a squad member, even though doing so would break a deeply held honor code among Marines (and other service branches, obviously).

    While the law is subjective -- otherwise, why would we need lawyers (some would argue, rightly in a lot of cases, that lawyers do more to obfuscate and frustrate the law than they do interpreting it, the DOJ under Bush being a great example, e.g, Gitmo) -- the fact is all soldiers and contractors operating in a combat zone have to operate under the law, regardless of what the enemy does.

    Does it hurt our COIN efforts? I would say yes. This specific incident? I don't know. This incident paired with other incidents like it (PMCs firing on civilians in Iraq, the Gitmo disaster) have a incredibly deleterious effect on COIN efforts and America's standing in the world.
    This post was in response to a post where I suggested that under some cultures, "honor" specifies that one breaks the law, and then presents themselves for punishment. Probably the most noteworthy example is a culture like the pre-modern Japanese culture, which celebrated the concept of "on" (I hope I'm getting that right) where warriors were expected to avenge perceived honor violations and then commit suicide or present themselves for punishment. (As an aside, to be denied the right to suicide or punishment was perceived as "unbearable" and "disgraceful" under that code).

    Similar, but more western is the mythical "cowboy code", (under which I believe I was raised, obtw) which possessed an sense of honor, but did not have a suicide component and only sometimes had a punishment component. In other words, anonymous vengeance was sometimes seen as acceptable, and even preferable to public vengeance.

    Finally, one can consider honor and the concept of honor in areas like the Middle East or in Africa, where honor killings and tribal/familial vengeance are portrayed as being part of the culture.

    If you consider the equity of outcomes, I am finding it more and more difficult to push western "law" as being superior to "honor". After all, under Western law more often than not, the one with the most cash wins. Also, the one with the best I/O campaign in the press often appears to win.

    Even with the consideration that law is just, in reality law is just the potential cost of an activity. Just because murder is against the law, it doesn't mean you cannot do it. It just means that if you wish to murder, it costs XX years in prison. It is futile to argue "law" with someone who has deemed the cost of whatever activity as an acceptable cost. For someone who values honor more than anything else, a tribal code is not subordinate to law.

    Nearly every poster on multiple forums where I read, have asserted that Mr. Ayala, the PMC accused of murdering the apprehended fire-attacker must have been operating under a certain level of "rage" to have shot an allegedly restrained attacker, if initial reports are true. I would suggest that perhaps that it is also possible that Mr. Ayala may have actually thought his actions through. There IS precedent for individuals deciding that the consequences for an action were worth the "crime".

    My "honor brain" tells me that an individual who determines they've failed in their core mission to the extent that someone else was maimed or killed, the concept of vengeance and then punishment would be cathartic, and relieve some of the guilt involved with the initial failure.

    On the topic of International law, while it is often advantageous to appear to be adherent to that mythology, in truth, Nations still "do what they can, and suffer what they must", and international law is still a bad joke. Especially with the rise of the non-nation actor and apologists for non-nation criminals, such as the Somali pirates. Except for the occasional dead pirate, the Somali pirates will never pay any legal cost for committing piracy. In this way, they expose the laughable nature of "international law".

  2. #2
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I'm with you.

    In that referenced earlier thread, Featherock said; "...Under the law he's wrong. And the law is all we have."

    I responded "... B. Your under the law statement is correct -- if it's proven he was wrong; guilty until proven innocent is not a good plan. C. The law is not all we have." So I obviously agree with you in principle

    You said
    "If you consider the equity of outcomes, I am finding it more and more difficult to push western "law" as being superior to "honor". After all, under Western law more often than not, the one with the most cash wins. Also, the one with the best I/O campaign in the press often appears to win."
    and I strongly agree with that. There are many who believe that the 'rule of law' is a universal fact -- it is not. They also believe that such rule is necessary for peace and tranquility -- it is not. Further, they seem to believe that if a law is written and codified that all will obey other than a very rare occasional and aberrant person -- not realizing that is far from correct; more laws are ignored than obeyed.

    I always wonder how many that strongly invoke "the rule of law" and push for various foolish -- even stupid -- laws that try to direct human behavior and mores are themselves closet speed limit breakers, cheat on their taxes or wives, sluff parking meters or throw trash on the street...

    Lastly, you say "
    On the topic of International law, while it is often advantageous to appear to be adherent to that mythology, in truth, Nations still "do what they can, and suffer what they must", and international law is still a bad joke. Especially with the rise of the non-nation actor and apologists for non-nation criminals, such as the Somali pirates. Except for the occasional dead pirate, the Somali pirates will never pay any legal cost for committing piracy. In this way, they expose the laughable nature of "international law."
    Excellent example showing the futility of the rather ridiculous belief that "...the law is all we have."

    If it weren't for a sense of individual honor, not a single law would be worth the paper it was printed upon. Honor transcends the law.

  3. #3
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Ken I agree at least in part w/ everything you and 120mm are stating, but I feel that there is a very needed addendum to what you are saying... Laws must be enforceable to have any effect. Enforceable laws do have some power and utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    If it weren't for a sense of individual honor, not a single law would be worth the paper it was printed upon. Honor transcends the law.
    Very True. Look at societies were the enforcers of the law are corrupt.
    Reed
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

  4. #4
    Council Member Ron Humphrey's Avatar
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    Post This particular thread

    May carry more relevance then might think given:

    If most can agree that times of economic instability and
    Associated problems tend be find more prevalence in
    "Law breaking" then it might be of note that it is during
    Times of duress when "codes" tend to be the ONLY thing
    That keeps many from straying from the right path?
    Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours

    Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur

  5. #5
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    I am not sure who said it but I disagree with the law is subjective quote. Good law is very objective. There is nothing subjective about shooting someone who is in custody. What I think he meant to say was "mitigating" circumstances, that is what the lawyers would argue in court. jmm99 this is straight up your alleyjump on in.

  6. #6
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I am not sure who said it but I disagree with the law is subjective quote. Good law is very objective. There is nothing subjective about shooting someone who is in custody. What I think he meant to say was "mitigating" circumstances, that is what the lawyers would argue in court. jmm99 this is straight up your alleyjump on in.
    So-called "good law" is only "good" if you share the same cultural background and decision-making process. If you look at it without emotional loading, our "laws" are more like a form of pricing. If you want to murder someone, there is a price tag attached, which price is completely negotiable. "Mitigating circumstances" are a euphemism for "bargaining" on the final price.

    If one's culture requires vengeance, (which, of course, is primitive and inferior to our incredibly perfect and objective Western Legal System [tm]) then being prohibited from putting down someone who needs it, badly, whether in confinement or no, that pesky law prohibiting it, is highly subjective in nature.

    So lawyers are pretty much useless for debating the "rightness" or "wrongness" of law. They are only the minor functionaries whose job is to debate the price.

    Of course, you can always "steal" the "product" by getting away with the crime.

    Of course, in reference to Slapout's subjective versus objective argument:

    There is nothing subjective about shooting someone who is in custody.
    How about when the government decides they can shoot someone who is in custody?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    It is futile to argue "law" with someone who has deemed the cost of whatever activity as an acceptable cost. For someone who values honor more than anything else, a tribal code is not subordinate to law.
    I'd be curious to hear some views on that specific point - particularly from the folks in law enforcement. I'm thinking about lower class, black teens who grow up in the ghetto, who seem to identify themselves as members of a class that is oppressed by the government - particularly the law enforcement personnel. Because their identity is in large part based upon opposition to law enforcement, going to jail is a badge of honor. It is respectable to earn a living in a manner that is illegal or otherwise flaunts society's norms. Any law directed at their anti-social behavior is immediately viewed as a government reprisal against their way of life (for example, laws against possession of crack were argued to be biased against blacks rather than against crack possessors). Am I way off base with this?

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I'd be curious to hear some views on that specific point - particularly from the folks in law enforcement. I'm thinking about lower class, black teens who grow up in the ghetto, who seem to identify themselves as members of a class that is oppressed by the government - particularly the law enforcement personnel. Because their identity is in large part based upon opposition to law enforcement, going to jail is a badge of honor. It is respectable to earn a living in a manner that is illegal or otherwise flaunts society's norms. Any law directed at their anti-social behavior is immediately viewed as a government reprisal against their way of life (for example, laws against possession of crack were argued to be biased against blacks rather than against crack possessors). Am I way off base with this?
    I don't think you're off base at all. And to add to jmm99's above comments, I think one of the "root causes" that has to be addressed, especially in an insurgency that has ties to differeing ethic/cultural groups, is "is the structure of law/honor codes sufficiently consistent with the insurgent group's codes to have legitimacy.

  9. #9
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I'd be curious to hear some views on that specific point - particularly from the folks in law enforcement. I'm thinking about lower class, black teens who grow up in the ghetto, who seem to identify themselves as members of a class that is oppressed by the government - particularly the law enforcement personnel. Because their identity is in large part based upon opposition to law enforcement, going to jail is a badge of honor. It is respectable to earn a living in a manner that is illegal or otherwise flaunts society's norms. Any law directed at their anti-social behavior is immediately viewed as a government reprisal against their way of life (for example, laws against possession of crack were argued to be biased against blacks rather than against crack possessors). Am I way off base with this?
    Very accurate based upon my experience.

  10. #10
    Council Member reed11b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I'd be curious to hear some views on that specific point - particularly from the folks in law enforcement. I'm thinking about lower class, black teens who grow up in the ghetto, who seem to identify themselves as members of a class that is oppressed by the government - particularly the law enforcement personnel. Because their identity is in large part based upon opposition to law enforcement, going to jail is a badge of honor. It is respectable to earn a living in a manner that is illegal or otherwise flaunts society's norms. Any law directed at their anti-social behavior is immediately viewed as a government reprisal against their way of life (for example, laws against possession of crack were argued to be biased against blacks rather than against crack possessors). Am I way off base with this?
    There was some justification too the argument that "crack" laws were biased against blacks. This was based on the fact the punishment for an equal amount of crack to an equal amount of cocaine was disproportionately heavier for the crack possessor. Since crack was primarily used by urban black poor and cocaine was used by middle class whites and the addictive/physical damaging properties of both drugs are similar, there likely was a bias.
    Reed
    Quote Originally Posted by sapperfitz82 View Post
    This truly is the bike helmet generation.

  11. #11
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    Default Jury Consultants

    Yup, they do exist - the lawyers' equivalent of HTTs. Very expensive and sometimes more voodoo than useful.

    Mine was the country boy version - which works in small counties (i.e., Northern Michigan, whose congressional district covers 1/2 of Michigan's landmass). The idea is networking.

    If juror 32 is from a small community, you call up your friends there (swear them to absolute secrecy - actually they are more worried about you telling the world what they say) and find out everything they are willing to tell you about juror 32, that person's friends, family, enemies, etc. Basically, a list of pretty standard questions depending on the case.

    If the case was in a county where I had no or little network, I'd associate a lawyer there who had a network and knew how to use it. The bottom line is that you end up with a list of Yes, Probably Yes, Don't Know, Probably No, No. You then become better informed when you meet the jurors at the voir dire when the jury is selected.

    Let us be clear. A trial lawyer is not looking for a "fair and impartial" jury. E.g., if I represented Gus Hall in the 1950's, I'd want a jury of Communists or as near as I could get to them. If I represented Tom Metzger or David Duke more recently, I would want Stormfronters or as near as I could get to them.

    I would get neither because the guy on the other side would be knocking them out by challenges - as would I to "his jurors". So, assuming the jury array (all prospective jurors) is inclusive of the community's demographics, the net result is as close to a "fair and impartial" jury as we can get.

    All this is not news to you, Slap, but it may be informative to those here who have not been involved in litigation.

  12. #12
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reed11b View Post
    There was some justification too the argument that "crack" laws were biased against blacks. This was based on the fact the punishment for an equal amount of crack to an equal amount of cocaine was disproportionately heavier for the crack possessor. Since crack was primarily used by urban black poor and cocaine was used by middle class whites and the addictive/physical damaging properties of both drugs are similar, there likely was a bias.
    Reed
    The question to ask before a declaration of racism is, "which drug has lead to more crime being committed?" Are more middle class whites committing crimes to get their coke or are poor urban blacks committing more crime to get their crack? I am always skeptical when I hear the R word being thrown around. Sometimes it is fully justified. Sometimes it is not. When I was going through the Q course there was an editorial being passed around where the author stated that Special Forces was a racist organization because they would not do away with the swim test as an application requirement. To my mind it is more racist to suggest that black people can't learn to swim than it is to have a swim test as an entrance requirement, but what do I know, I'm just a white guy from suburban Pennsylvania.

    SFC W

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    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    The question to ask before a declaration of racism is, "which drug has lead to more crime being committed?" Are more middle class whites committing crimes to get their coke or are poor urban blacks committing more crime to get their crack? I am always skeptical when I hear the R word being thrown around. Sometimes it is fully justified. Sometimes it is not. When I was going through the Q course there was an editorial being passed around where the author stated that Special Forces was a racist organization because they would not do away with the swim test as an application requirement. To my mind it is more racist to suggest that black people can't learn to swim than it is to have a swim test as an entrance requirement, but what do I know, I'm just a white guy from suburban Pennsylvania.

    SFC W
    Would that make you a "bitter clinger"...

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    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Would that make you a "bitter clinger"...
    Til my dying day!

    SFC W

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