Mumbai Attacks and their impact

[Ken White]

...2. How can ten (10) men, even armed with automatic weapons and grenades, hold off hundreds of commandos and police officers for sixty (60) hours?

but provide an answer to this. Easily.

What room or rooms in what buildings? Intelligence and / or technology available to the commandos and police to determine said locations? Their familiarity with each others work processes and ability to cooperate? Hostages involved? More importantly, respective levels of training. Most importantly level of dedication of the ten and their willingness to die to complete their mission.

Not at all difficult to do. Sixty hours is really pretty good time. Fighting in cities is never easy...

This LINK was just one of the buildings involved, it alone could easily take over a day to clear after the assault team arrived (12 hours away) and got prepped (another 4-6 hours minimum).

[bismark17]

I can only speak to local oriented Law Enforcement in the U.S. but I don't think anyone is ready for something like this other than possibly Israel but their society tolerates a level of security that wouldn't work here. At least until we have something along these lines.

We are all about containment. For the most part we only carry sidearms and thin body armour. Our training is all about containing a situation to put the subject into a fixed place to allow the SWAT team to begin their operation. We don't really train for scenarios like this and it's assumed that our SWAT teams would be the ones having to run and gun with this kind of adversary. Obviously, if it does happen it will be the front line patrol officers having to do it. Active shooters are a major threat both from the operational and tactical perspective. Look at what happened with the former Ranger tabbed suspects that took on the FBI in that infamous shoot out in Miami.

I am fortunate to work for a Department that has an outstanding Firearms training unit that does look at current events and changes their training based upon them. We do train for multiple threats and active shooters trying to roll your flanks and such. But, it's still tough to be confident about dealing with something along these lines.

We are very risk adverse due to the amount of litigitation that is part of our day to day operations. This has changed to some extent due to our school or Mall shooter scenarios but it's an extreme command and control issue to deal with multiple entry teams running around in a fixed location. There is going to be extreme chaos and it's hard for me to imagine anyone could do much better under those circumstances. In this particular case the Police were directly targeted so their command and control was screwed from the get go.

On a positve level, I think we are better prepared than we were prior to the Hollywood shootout where the suspects were heavily armored and carried long guns. It spurred Departments across the nation to develop patrol rifle programs and improve active shooter training which are good things.

[bourbon]

Reports coming in are mentioning the role of Dawood Ibrahim in the attacks. Ibrahim is the head of D-Company, which is the leading group in the Mumbai underworld. He has strong connections to ISI, and was the facilitator of the 1993 attacks in Mumbai. Reportedly, D-Company controls Sasool dock where the attackers came ashore. One of the captured attackers has reportedly said in interrogation that Ibrahim owned the ship the attackers took from Karachi, and D-Company provided logistical support in the city.

This was not global jihad. Its roots are far closer to home: These attacks were born of local and regional hostilities, and it seems likely a part was played by a Mumbai crime boss, by Misha Glenny. guardian.co.uk, December 1 2008.

Captured Mumbai attacker implicates Pakistani military, intel, By Bill Roggio. The Long War Journal, November 30, 2008.

Captured Mumbai terrorist reveals plot to slaughter 5000. Herald Sun, December 01, 2008.

[carl]

I think American police department capabilities may be underestimated. In the area I worked in, in critical situations, we could call on one large and one small city pd, numerous sheriff's offices, the BLM cops, several tribal police departments, the wildlife guys, the local FBI office, the state police and if things really got bad, the state pen special guys. There were always a number of special trained officers on normal patrol and (I have been gone a few years) I would assume that now there are a number of officers who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan. Everybody had pistols and shotguns and all the state police had AR-15's. Given more time, swat teams from all over the state would be there too.

There would be tremendous confusion and hell to pay in the first few hours but there is more capability there than people may think. Those Mexican drug assassins in Arizona certainly didn't have things all their own way.

[Cavguy]

Made me chuckle from Abu Muqawama -

Look, if just 10 dudes rolled into my hometown and started shooting people, they would have been killed within the hour. I'm not kidding. (People still try to take their guns aboard planes in my hometown.) India's police has been caught out by these 10 gunmen as badly as U.S. intelligence services (and airport security) were caught out by the 9/11 hi-jackers. In both cases, there was no reason so many people were killed by so few. Unlike 9/11, though, heads are rolling in India. In case anyone is wondering,

I imagine the same in Slapout, AL.

[Uboat509]

I am still much more concerned about a Beslan type situation than something like Mumbai. I just don't think that a similar attack would have near the success in the US. Law Enforcement capabilities aside, there are an awful lot of people like me out there bitterly clinging to our guns. A Beslan type attack, say on a large inner city school, or schools on the other hand could be devastating, particularly if the attackers managed to start a rumor that there were other groups still out there ready to attack other schools. It is one thing to say that I will not let the terrorists scare me. I will live my life and go to work and do what I need to do regardless of the threat. It is quite another thing to send your babies into that. How many businesses would have troubles with production because terrified parents stayed home with their kids? What kind of effect would that many working parents staying home have on the economy?

SFC W

[carl]

I just don't think that a similar attack would have near the success in the US. Law Enforcement capabilities aside, there are an awful lot of people like me out there bitterly clinging to our guns.
SFC W

Agreed. I found people were extremely eager to help if an officer was in a fight or somebody went missing. If we had passed the word we needed armed volunteers...the numbers would have been large.

[bismark17]

I am concerned about the Beslan style issue myself or hit and run attacks on malls. That would be really great for the economy at this point. Or look at what those 2 weirdos, the father and son sniper team, did on the East Coast. The IRA already started that a long time ago with urban sniping from vehicles. Coming from both an Infantry and Police background it's amazing to participate or watch force on force situations with multiple search teams in active shooter scenarios. The command and control is brutal. Without getting too specific the usual history of these events is that the active shooter doesn't want to engage with us but will usually shoot themselves once they realize we are on scene.

Terrorists are not going to do that but will want to engage. These latest guys were very well trained and aggressive. The latest account I read claimed that they took turns to change their mags so that one of them could provide support. High speed. Think of how this went and what they could have done better because they are....

I am still much more concerned about a Beslan type situation than something like Mumbai. I just don't think that a similar attack would have near the success in the US. Law Enforcement capabilities aside, there are an awful lot of people like me out there bitterly clinging to our guns. A Beslan type attack, say on a large inner city school, or schools on the other hand could be devastating, particularly if the attackers managed to start a rumor that there were other groups still out there ready to attack other schools. It is one thing to say that I will not let the terrorists scare me. I will live my life and go to work and do what I need to do regardless of the threat. It is quite another thing to send your babies into that. How many businesses would have troubles with production because terrified parents stayed home with their kids? What kind of effect would that many working parents staying home have on the economy?

SFC W

[slapout9]

I imagine the same in Slapout, AL.

You got that right....like 36-0 My friend "Fat Tony" would make them an offer they couldn't refuse and they would never forget

The 1st US Redneck Special Forces Unit. Fat Tony is in the Red Shirt. Oh Yea there is some bad words in here but they go by so fast you can't hardly her them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2597...eature=related

[Ken White]

from Texas...

LINK.

[Rex Brynen]

Pakistan moves troops toward Indian border

SEBASTIAN ABBOT
Associated Press
Globe and Mail, December 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM EST

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan began moving thousands of troops to the Indian border Friday, intelligence officials said, sharply raising tensions triggered by the Mumbai terror attacks.

India has blamed Pakistani-based militants for last month's siege on its financial capital, which killed 164 people and has provoked an increasingly bitter war of words between nuclear-armed neighbours that have fought three wars in 60 years.

The troops headed to the Indian border were being diverted away from tribal areas near Afghanistan, officials said, and the move was expected to frustrate the United States, which has been pushing Pakistan to step up its fight against al-Qaeda and Taliban militants near the Afghan border.

Two intelligence officials said the army's 14th Division was being redeployed to the towns of Kasur and Sialkot, close to the Indian border. They said some 20,000 troops were on the move. Earlier Friday, a security official said all troop leave had been cancelled.