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Thread: Supply routes to Afghanistan

  1. #41
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default Irianian RR history, it was built by the US Army WW II

    David:

    The late Army Transportation Corp Lt. Colonel George Lowrey, USA, Ret., Deceased, of WW II era Lt. Colonelcy (his family owned heavy industry business in Birmingham, Alabama, he was only in the Army during WW II) an older but very good friend of mine...built the Iranian railroad still in use in Iran.

    The Iranian RR was built in reaction to:

    - Removal of the prior Shah, who was pro-Nazi [the ex-Shah had started a process to "let" German forces come into northern Iran and a RR was needed by the allies pdq to move troops and material as a blocking reaction;
    - USSR movement of troops into northern parts of Iran against understanding with the Allies [this was attempted during and especially toward the end of WW II by USSR, to move into and "take" w/puppet government Soviets attempted to set up in N. Iran;
    - To create a better transporation route for escaping Jews from Europe (this was a backdoor escape route from Nazi extermination of Jews)
    - And to move supplies up into and for Russia to use against the Nazis.

    In the 1960s when I was a young USAF Lieutenant out of US Embassy in Karachi, I made numerous flying visits to coordinate matters in Tehran...and the WW II era built railroad was still the backbone of the then entire (not then very vast, not sure size/status of Iranian RR system today) Iranian RR line(s) as of the mid-1960s.

    Background info of course.
    Last edited by George L. Singleton; 02-05-2009 at 12:31 AM.

  2. #42
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    Exclamation Russian Influence and our air base in Kyrgyzstan.

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

    It seems a squeeze from Russia is inevtible.
    Appearantly the Kremlin has applied pressure against Kyrgyzstan for allowing us to base there. Kremlin states that US does not protect it's allies (Georgia) and Kyrgyzstan will remain Russias neighbor to the south. "The US will leave you be we are here to stay"

    Russia prefers to be dealt with directly by the US in "Their sphere of Influence".

    It goes without saying that shakey Logistics through Pakistan and the inability to airlift is a very uncomfortable position for our troops to be in.

    Big work must be put into this right away. Logistics is the baseline which shall determine how Afghanistan works for us.

    If you cannot supply the troops, they may not stay there.

  3. #43
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    Default Another link in the chain

    Yesterday's AP analysis is here.

    Analysis: Kyrgyz base a Kremlin test for Obama
    Analysis: Kremlin testing Obama administration in dispute over key Central Asian base
    DOUGLAS BIRCH
    AP News
    Feb 04, 2009 12:34 EST

    The Kremlin's message to President Barack Obama is clear: if the U.S. wants Central Asian help in its war against the Taliban, it must deal first with Russia.

    A $2 billion aid pledge from Russia appears to be behind Kyrgyzstan's announcement that it will close a U.S. air base that has played a key role in American military operations in Afghanistan......
    It seems we lost the auction.

  4. #44
    Council Member Ron Humphrey's Avatar
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    Question Kinda confused on this one

    Kyrgyz Republic looks to lose much more then they might gain from any such venture.

    Just under 36% of GDP is agriculture, much of which they enable through trade with us. And just how much exactly do they expect to gain in growth from Russian purchasing power. Less people usually equals less need for food and other such amenities, not to mention if they continue along the path they currently seem to be on it's likely that Russia grows it's defense budget which would leave even less for external expenditures.

    .
    Trade: Exports (2007)--$1.34 billion: cotton, wool, meat, tobacco, gold, mercury, uranium, hydropower, machinery, shoes. Partners--Russia 20.7%, Switzerland 19.9%, Kazakhstan 18.0%, Afghanistan 10.4%. Imports--$2.64 billion: oil and gas, machinery and equipment, foodstuffs. Partners--Russia 40.5%, China 14.7%, Kazakhstan 12.9%, Uzbekistan 5%
    DOS


    Seems like it would be a better bet counting on growth of trade with Afghanistan, Pakistan, China, India, and assorted other regionally located entities who just might be looking for trade opportunities over the next ten to 15 years.

    I can just see it now. .........
    (M) OK we'll forgive debt(which we never really expected to get paid anyway) and promise to build stuff and bring you into the fold, you just have to put a damper on those darn yanks expeditionary efforts. Or we could just shut of the spigit(which we're getting really good at lately ) and cut back on trade with you(which by the way we're gonna have to do anyway we just want you to think we're doin it because we want to, not have to)

    And all this time all KR hears is HMMMMM blah blah blah you don't have to pay blah blah or it'll hurt.

    What their thinking is wonder how much more I can get the US to pay for that $$$$$$$airfield$$$$$$

    We live in one screwed up world
    Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours

    Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur

  5. #45
    Council Member jkm_101_fso's Avatar
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    Default Pakistani Forces Kill 52 Militants Near Vital Supply Route

    Just saw this, looks like Pak military is helping out along supply routes:

    Pakistani Forces Kill 52 Militants Near Vital Supply Route
    Associated Press

    ISLAMABAD — Government helicopter gunships killed 52 Islamist militants Friday in two attacks in northwestern Pakistan, a lawless region where Al Qaeda and Taliban militants increasingly hold sway, a government official said.
    They destroyed five militant hide-outs, a large ammunition depot and eight vehicles, he said.

    Militants have stepped up attacks in the Khyber region in recent months, seeking to disrupt a vital supply line for Western forces in neighboring Afghanistan.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489044,00.html
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

  6. #46
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Stop and Go in Kyrgyzstan

    Late discovery, from the BBC on 6th Feb '09: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/7873866.stm In summary: Kyrgyzstan says its decision to close a US base that serves as a vital supply route for US and Nato operations in Afghanistan is "final". Under the MOU the USA has six months to leave.

    Nothing in ths region is either clear or simple.

    davidbfpo

  7. #47
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default MOU is still in effect re Kyrgyzstan US Air Base

    David's recent post that under the MOU we have six months to vacate is correct.

    Some of the recurring missions in and out of Kyrgyzstan are being flown by the 908th USAF Reserve Wing out of Maxwell AFB, Alabama. One of those pilots spoke to our Military Officers Association of America chapter monthly dinner meeting not too long ago, talk included excellent slides.

    Pakistan desperately needs the revenue from use of movement of supplies and material through that nation. I like the posting of 50-odd militants killed by Pak attack choppers. We must see more of that, but what the Pakistani military hasn't been able to effectively do is put enmass divisions in place and keep them there instead of playing psychological games about India and other phoney threats.

    Cheers.

  8. #48
    Council Member Ron Humphrey's Avatar
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    Question You know

    Quote Originally Posted by George L. Singleton View Post

    Pakistan desperately needs the revenue from use of movement of supplies and material through that nation. I like the posting of 50-odd militants killed by Pak attack choppers. We must see more of that, but what the Pakistani military hasn't been able to effectively do is put enmass divisions in place and keep them there instead of playing psychological games about India and other phoney threats.

    Cheers.
    While this is understandable and especially that last part, one would think that at some point PAK and Indian Governments need to develop at least some kind of mil/mil comms that would help cut down on the militants opportunities to capitalize on old resentments.

    They don't have to like each other but at least if they are comfortable enough with the fact that their not gonna attack each other a lot of the problems might be nipped in the bud before they reach boiling point's.

    As to the Kyrgyz does anyone know, if this happens do we have to keep providing the other aid we've been giving them. Seems like if they pick a side they should try living with it. ( This said of course completely Tongue in Cheek I personally have no idea as to the larger dynamic's there) but it does seem like a reasonable layman's question
    Any man can destroy that which is around him, The rare man is he who can find beauty even in the darkest hours

    Cogitationis poenam nemo patitur

  9. #49
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default

    [QUOTE=Ron Humphrey;66187]While this is understandable and especially that last part, one would think that at some point PAK and Indian Governments need to develop at least some kind of mil/mil comms that would help cut down on the militants opportunities to capitalize on old resentments.

    Ron, you are thinking logically about mil to mil between Pak and India. The ethnic, religious, and geopolitical hatreds there are deep at all levels, even flag ranks who have Western univeristy degrees, etc.

    What is sheer insanity or stupidity or both to us is everyday routine hatred to them, always has been, and will be for a long time to come.

    Both Pakistan and India still have many poor illiterate population who have to be kept focused on something or someone to hate to avoid thinking too much about their own lack of everything in their daily lives.

    One vivid memory of Karach in my day was the dead and dying just lying by the thousands on sidewalks across that city of then 14 million, now I hear maybe 20 million population...people using those sidewalks just stepped over or walked around, no concern for the lower classes at all!

  10. #50
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default New route?

    Kazakhstan will now assist logistically: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090209...20090209161206

    Now I must get that atlas and check on where to invest my savings (not serious, just a late joke of mixed effect).

    davidbfpo
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 02-11-2009 at 08:30 AM. Reason: Spelling and text in brackets

  11. #51
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default Map and related data

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/kz.html

    David:

    This tells you this is yet another landlocked nation with unclean rivers and lakes/their portion of Caspian Sea; left over nuclear and chemical wastes not properly disposed of.

    Etc.

    But, it is a piece of a logistics route puzzle.

    Take a look at the map and related narrative.

  12. #52
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Supplies diverted

    Alongside the US government report on unaccounted weapons is this Pakistani story on US military computers being sold in the local (NWFP / FATA) marketplace: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/p...he-wrong-hands

    Nothing surprising I suspect.

    davidbfpo

  13. #53
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Secondary route hit

    I was aware that another overland route via Pakistan's Baluchistan Province existed and this links reports an attack on the border: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090318/...Wtpc3RhbmF0dGE

    I think the author's geography is wrong, as Chaman is a long way from the Swat Valley and possibly Bajaur Valley; Wikipedia I note refers to a railway line to the border: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaman

    davidbfpo

  14. #54
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Bridge sabotaged

    In the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020300120.html

    Reports a bridge 15 miles from Peshawar destroyed and so blocking supplies to US forces. Has some predictable comments on the local police and security situation.

    Another story reports a transit depot raided overnight.

    davidbfpo

  15. #55
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default

    Uzbekistan has now (this week) signed an agreement for a new northern supply routes.

    This northern route is obviously needed if the new Afghan-Pakistan strategy is to work. Pakistan, as David notes in his posts early today, continues to have lousy roads, trucks, depots, and overall logistical line of supply security...guess most of those troops are roasting marsh mellows on the Indian border near Lahore!

    NATO/the US are in negotiations currently with the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

    Feel free to correct my memory/recall of this info if I am off the factual mark.

  16. #56
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Alterntaive route

    Re-discovered this story, on 14th March 2009, in The Spectator (UK): http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magaz...hanistan.thtml

    Contains some items familiar and others not so well known e.g. new bridge with Tajikistan.

    davidbfpo

  17. #57
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default

    David, thanks for this logistics newsclip on this site. I have read it and written an on line rebuttal of some of the remarks by this inexperienced young reporter.

    Spring in full swing here. Hope the weather is better now in UK.

    Cheers,
    George Singleton

  18. #58
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Logistics

    This issue seems to have fallen asleep, although there have been a few reports on the problems in Pakistan with moving supplies by truck and IIRC comments on the implications for any "surge" in relying on Karachi port and the overland routes.

    The link is a report on an attack on fuel tankers in Afghanistan outside Jalalabad, which has "lessons learned" :
    http://freerangeinternational.com/blog/?p=2344

    I note the convoy had an escort from a PSC Blue Compass:
    http://www.compass-iss.com/index.html

    davidbfpo

  19. #59
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Default

    There's often talk about the drug trade and its financial relevance to the insurgents. I wonder why I did so rarely read & hear about truck protection money as Taliban income?

    Is it such an unpleasant topic because this problem means that any surge (= more transports necessary) would yield more income for the Taliban groups close to the main roads? The same applies to the idea of building roads to improve logistics, economy and access, of course.

  20. #60
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Default

    Heard that through deals w/Russia and the Stans, 70% of our Afghanistan logistics now comes from the north rather than through Pakistan. That is a change that has occurred over the last 6-12 months.

    For those thinking along those lines, I imagine that's what we got when we traded the missile defense in East Europe. Seems a good deal to me.
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
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