Fiasco at the Army War College?

**Cavguy** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by Voodoun

When I say Europe is lost, I just mean its lost - those people are goofy as sin. The Germans are the worst - seriously, its like if you dont have a pee fetish you arent cool.

I don't know if there's much of a conspiracy, really, AQ and simliar groups have made their goals pretty clear.

So I grew up in a small neighborhood next door to a large Palestinian family. They're very religious, but no more than your average devout Baptist. The three families with kids in the area had 3 boys of similar age. We all grew up together, celebrating Christmas and Ramadan at eachother's houses.

The Arab family's extended relatives were always over, and on special occasions big trips to the local mosque would ensue, for birthdays and such. The Mosque was just a good sized house across from the University.

A couple years after 9/11 that Mosque was discovered to be part of terrorist financing network.

For years we thought the idea that the Soviets had agents in high levels of government was just McCarthyist claptrap. We now know that our entire counterintelligence apparatus was designed with the crucial assistance of an MI6 officer "Kim" Philby. Years later we discovered that Philby had been a Soviet Agent since he was at Cambridge.

I don't think Islamists have penetrated our security apparatus, no, but there is certainly something to be said for their clandestine capabilities.

Let's assume your neighbors were in on the terrorist financing (which terrorists?), but how exactly are they going to bring down western civilization?

And AQ has nowhere near the resources or organization that the KGB did. Come on.

**marct** · 01-23-2009

Hi Voodun,

Let me just pick up on this comment:

Originally Posted by Voodoun

A couple years after 9/11 that Mosque was discovered to be part of terrorist financing network.

A fair number of "terrorist financing networks" came into existence because the groups that were involved in the fundraising were redefined as "terrorists". It would be like the "Christian Save the Children's Fund" suddenly be identified as a "terrorist" organization.

**Voodoun** · 01-23-2009

My neighbors had nothing to do with it, they simply unwittingly tithed to a mosque that misdirected their money. The father of that family was a dedicated family man who came to America to marry the wife of his brother who already had 3 kids but had been shot and killed at the small corner store he ran.

Today the kids are HAMAS sympathizers and feel alienated by the US government.

Desire to bring down western civilization does not equal capability, and I didn't argue that they could do it. I was simply offering some insight.

I also never made any comparisons to the KGB's financing and AQ's financing.

I'm not saying AQ has the capacity to do what it wants to do.

But I will also point out that 50 years ago NO ONE would have thought that Turkey would have an Islamic party in power. 50 years ago the Lebanese would never have believed you if you told them that Christians would be a tiny minority.

**Voodoun** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by marct

Hi Voodun,

Let me just pick up on this comment:

A fair number of "terrorist financing networks" came into existence because the groups that were involved in the fundraising were redefined as "terrorists". It would be like the "Christian Save the Children's Fund" suddenly be identified as a "terrorist" organization.

suddenly, for no reason? HAMAS, Hizballah, Muslim Brotherhood, these guys all have numerous charitable arms. Maybe I put too much faith in the FBI, but I assume they did their due diligence.

**Bob's World** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by Voodoun

Col Jones, right or wrong, reshaping the middle east has been a policy of the US for quite some time

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/kober-030325.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ddle-East.html

http://www.italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS22053.pdf

De Opresso Liber - don't we reshape everytime we do just that?

And now we grow nearer to the root of the problem! We have indeed made the shaping of the Middle East a central part of our foreign policy and engagement for some 65 years now. The first 45 of that were to wage the Cold War. The last 20 are what should be carefully reviewed and upgraded for the world we live in today.

If the people of the Middle East were primarily Hindu we would be facing a "radical Hindu" problem right now.

The question is, why are these people so upset, and why are they directing that in our general direction? Those who contribute it to differences of religion, or jealousy, or any one of another dozen favorites that get wheeled out to avoid taking any responsibility back on ourselves are why we are 8 years into this problem, with little headway to show for it. This is not to say it is our fault, for I am with the President here, and will not apologize. But recognizing ones responsibilities are a far cry from accepting blame for a complex problem that many factors have contributed to.

**Cavguy** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by Voodoun

My neighbors had nothing to do with it, they simply unwittingly tithed to a mosque that misdirected their money. The father of that family was a dedicated family man who came to America to marry the wife of his brother who already had 3 kids but had been shot and killed at the small corner store he ran.

Today the kids are HAMAS sympathizers and feel alienated by the US government.

I think my argument against this Islamists fear-mongering is made by your last point.

Why would those kids feel that way - because wingnuts like the ones I quoted have told them that they do not belong and are not welcome in western society, and are to be distrusted as potential AQIZ moles. Our worldwide "war against terror" is nearly universally seen in the muslim world as a "war against islam", no matter how we market it.

People tend to perform to society's expetations of them.

What we fail to realize is that our fear and actions are losing this war for us, and exposing the darker sides of America.

**marct** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by Voodoun

suddenly, for no reason? HAMAS, Hizballah, Muslim Brotherhood, these guys all have numerous charitable arms. Maybe I put too much faith in the FBI, but I assume they did their due diligence.

Oh, I didn't say for no reason

. But, suddenly? Yup. Let me give you an example: in Canada, Hamas used to be a perfectly legal organization. This legal situation only changed after 9/11, so people who had supported Hamas financially, and there were a fair number here who did, all of a sudden found that they were supporting a "terrorist network".

I remember chatting with one of my students in 2002 about this. His university tuition, along with living expenses, were being paid for by Hamas which, BTW, he was quite open about. Now they had agreed to pay his university costs if he agreed to go back to Lebanon and do civil engineering for 4-5 years in some of the areas they controlled (which, BTW, he had grown up in).

Was he a terrorist? Not in my opinion at that time, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is still a Hamas supporter.

**Bob's World** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by RTK

COL Jones,

Completely unrelated question that perhaps COL Maxwell could weigh in on as well; Why have we been more successful in the Philippeans with our approach than we have in the Middle East?

In short, because in the Philippines we manage to mind our own business at the same time as we mind to our national interests.

In the Middle East, we made everything our business as well.

Examples:

In the Philippines, the HN conducts COIN and CT, the US conducts FID
In the Philippines there are no U.S. detainees, only Philippino detainees
In the Philippines there are no U.S. bases, only Philippino bases
In the Philippines, U.S. soldiers don't kill Philippinos, Philippino soldiers do
In the Philippines the U.S. was invited in by the HN, in the Middle East we invaded

This can go on and on. Clearly not all of this is applicable, but if I was going to summarize the one key difference it is that we tend to treat the Philippine populace more as we would treat the American Populace; but we do not extend that same respect to the Populaces of many of the places we engage elsewhere.

**Voodoun** · 01-23-2009

Col Jones,

I was saying that if reshaping the middle east is our goal, then cultural fluency is necessary. I'm not making a right/wrong judgement on reshaping the middle east - I draw clear lines for myself on that sort of policy advocacy. My focus is on matching policy to goals, not determining the righteousness of goals. Maybe 20 years from now I'll get to that point, but right now I try to restrict my lane.

Cavguy - fear mongering conspiracy theory minded people on both sides of the political aisle are a big pet peeve of mine. I do think that you're not giving the Islamists enough agency here - US perceptions abroad and by first generation Americans (of which I am one) are not actively controlled by the USG or its actions. The propaganda efforts of Islamists, particularly Palestinians (who learned it from the secular Palestinian organizations being trained by the KGB) are AMAZING. Their harb al nafsiyah may be the most sophisticated and successful that the world has ever seen.

Aside from the Phares text, Ron Schliefer's Psychological Warfare in the Intifada: Israeli and Palestinian Media Politics and Military Strategies is a doozy.

As you can imagine, when I have conversations with my childhood friend, the talk usually turns to US policy, the military, etc. As an American, he believes no Jews died on 9/11. This is a college educated (computer science) businessman who tells me that bin Laden works for CIA, and was trained by them in Afghanistan. He tells me that the US has been stealing oil from Iraq. He tells me that Bush is being played by the Zionists (funny enough, like many American Arabs I meet, he seems to have a soft spot for Bush) who control Congress.

These are not perceptions logically deduced from US actions.

**Voodoun** · 01-23-2009

Well I suppose 'suddenly' happens any time something goes from one category to another.

I don't know how many new organizations were added to the FTO list since 9/11 - lets look.

36 in 2004 vs 28 in 1999.

Of those 8 I'd have to dig deeper to find out how many existed before 2001.

**Steve Blair** · 01-23-2009

I'd say this thread is straying a wee bit off course. The whole AWC thing seems to have played itself out, so what say we leave its bones and move on?

**Ken White** · 01-23-2009

Originally Posted by Voodoun

When I say Europe is lost, I just mean its lost - those people are goofy as sin. The Germans are the worst - seriously, its like if you dont have a pee fetish you arent cool.

We have a number of foreign, including European and German, members and that comment was out of line. You said it, so no sense in trying to retract it or apologize but don't repeat the error.

**Voodoun** · 01-23-2009

Ok, I wont make any more attempts at humorous jabs - nor did I realize that my PSYOP skills were being put to the test on an online bboard. Good to know, thanks. I'm on it.