I think that addresses the medical concerns, but not always the tactical ones. I understand some ODAs had good experiences with them. But I can't imagine that working well for the types of missions that an Infantry Battalion will be doing; at least not to a degree where the Soldiers will all be able to ditch their rucks.Originally Posted by carl
On The Endless Cycle of Armourising
Must feel that the process has now reached certain logical conclusions.
Wish to address armour on men & trucks.
(not tanks since I feel armour belongs on them...seperate issue)
The flak vest and gun shield have evolved into quite obtuse systems which constrict movement severely.
In the nature of adaptation the counter to Coalition vehicular plate overcastings has been the implementation of penetrating devices, commonly called EFPs , which essentially render all vehicle armor useless.
I expect that armour penetrating rounds could be improvised for sniper rifles, etc. that would place dismounts in the same over-dressed, unprotected state.
Change is continuous in all conflict.
I remember a Pentagon briefing, several years ago, when the MOLLE gear was first being introduced and the latest ruck was being modeled. A spokesman on the podium said something to the effect of, "this new ruck will allow Soldiers to carry 150 pound loads comfortably." And, to demonstrate, a short, older woman wearing spit-shined jumpboots was standing proudly on the podium, sporting the full ruck, apparently quite comfortable with it bearing down on her shoulders (I have no idea whether it was full of ammo or pillows).
While I do not miss the lackluster training or garrison-minded madness of the pre-9/11 force, I have to admit that spectacles like that did provide for an occasional good laugh.
For the guys at PEO-Soldier, I wish to offer this nugget, from a guy who's schlepped many a bag on his back over the years (military and civilian) -
There is no comfortable way to carry 150 pounds of gear. There are varying ranges of discomfort, but it'll never feel as good as when you take the pack off.
Brant
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Weight is a factor of training
Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.
90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.
Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.
What would you have me leave behind?
As an always been a civilian, I will risk getting excoriated for the following comments by those who've been there and done that.
The Romans put a lot of effort into building extremely good roads so their soldiers could march those distances with those loads.
"a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite."
This quote begs the question-why just the most elite? Why not everybody else? Wouldn't there be more options available if the less elite could stay out as long? Wouldn't it be easier to stay out so long if less weight was carried.
"Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable." The question isn't whether it can be done. The important question is can it be done so as to keep the Taliban looking over their shoulders thinking those guys might be gaining on them.
"What would you have me leave behind?" I talked to a South African once who went on long patrols in Namibia. They were allowed to take what they wanted and thought they could carry and still move at the speed required. I think our people should be trusted to take what they want and leave what they don't need.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
That's un-American...
Both items...
Actually, the first is not, the fact that we are not doing that as often or as well as most over there wish is however, very risk averse, USA Today-ish. The second probably really is un-American. It certainly is un-
Armyish...
Five days of expected contact is a really long time, no matter the war.
One of the things I think that is missing from this thread is what is the combat load of a long range recce light and what is the combat load of a mounted Soldier. Maybe it's a cavalry thing, but off-ramping into a fight is a lot different load out than what is carried onto the vehicle as part of the SOP packing list. Hopping off for a 5 and 25 is usually vest and weapon, which is a lot different than what you take for an OP or even a shorter SKT.
GI Zhou pointed out that the biggest thing is water. In my OIFs and NTCs that was the back breaker. We'd go out for a day or two, and someone had to carry the jug.
Few are the problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of concentrated firepower.
That would depend on the mission. There are times when body armor is need and times when it is not. There are also times when 7 bangs might be needed and times when they would probably not. Other things could also be adjusted as needed.
Too much sir
An Australian infantry warrant officer, weel versed in hidstory, did a study on weights carried by the Britsh then Australian soldier since 1788. Guess what, nothings changed weight wise. As soon as someone develops a lighter weapon, ammunition another piece of equipment is added.
I trained with 16kg of equipment, (I never went on ops and in my day theer was little bosy armour about), plus weapon normally a L2 7.62x51mm automatic rifle (same weight as a SAW) or SLR (FN-FAL) or Steyr AUG. This included equivalent weights of ammuniton (270 rounds of 5.56mm or 180/200 rounds of 7.62mm) cleaning kit, four litres of water, trauma kit, a simple swiss army knife attached to my shirt with a long piece of 'hootchie' cord, Buck clasp knife atatched to my belt, torch and a brew kit good for 48 hours.
I worked in the derst/tropical savannah and I had space for a night sight and an old wooden handled entrenching and radio if need be and food as I felt I needed it. being the assistant or squad commander and carrying the AR meant no radio. The ground was like rock. One karrabiner was carried as I put my rifle sling through it. Good for closing cut concertina wire too.
Go from an operational unit to a REMF unit and they expected you to carry everything but the kitchen sink. Thought they were fighting NATO Central and the many of the girls collapsed under the weight before they even started!
I don't think people realise the biggest issues are water, food and now batteries. If you can't go without a meal for 24 hours except sweets, canned stone fruits and coffee/tea you really are in the wrong business.
If operating in snow or cold wet weather the weight changes considerably and outside this discussion as it becomes a battle against the elements as much as the enemy.
We won't ever break down our loads to what the taliban carries.
I have run down taliban when using effective fire and manuever. You overall weight isn't going to change much, as somebody here noted. You train to the load and thats as fast as you are going to go.
I dropped side sapis for most missions unless actually doing a raid.
A 5 day mission is a recce. You are going to trade armor and ammo for food and batteries (or solar charger) YOu aren't going to be looking for trouble.
In a firefight, you want the armor. It doesn't beat cover, but allows you to take risks under fire you wouldn't take otherwise. I fought fine with my load and I wouldn't trade my two main plates for anything else.
You will note that food wasn't on there. All I had was goo packets in my pants pockets. I got hungry, but food isn't a priority.
Taliban carried an ICOM, 3 mags and a bag of chinese vet pills.
My load will never be close to that level regardless, so trying to out light fight the taliban is a stupid direction to go.
You want to slow up the taliban? Aviation or fix with fires.
Greetings gentlemen, I come out of that small war of 30 years ago... Rhodesia. I see this issue of weight of kit still is a major issue - some things never change. Do you have the ability to load according to the type of operation or are the equipment tales fixed?
The tables tend to be fixed at the worst times. We call it "sticking to the SOP (standard operating procedure)", and unfortunately, there are more times than not where little thought is applied to just what needs to be carried, where it should be located on one's body, and why it is needed in the first place.
Take the current USMC-issued first aid kit. It tends towards the bulky and almost unnecessary when you look at the components. The trauma supplied as essential, for sure, but the boo-boo kit takes up about half of its girth, and yet the corpsman carries copious quantities of small bandages, salves, and the like. I trimmed mine down to just the trauma care pieces and moved the rest to a small pouch in my camelbak on my back, and the remnant is still bigger than I wish it was.
As a military, we learned some bad lessons from our smaller conflicts, such as Task Force Ranger's fight in Mogadishu in 1993, where night vision was not carried on the raid, yet reportedly was desired when day turned to night. The actual effectiveness of any IR optics without IR aiming lights remains dubious if you ask me, yet that scenario was trumped out during Officer Candidate School for me a few years later. We hoard gear as a result of the urban legends surrounding incidents like that.
My team and I (Civil Affairs) operated with a fair amount of autonomy. The guys we helped were a little fuzzy on how much of our butt the CSM was going to be able to chew when our stuff was non-standard and nowhere near their SOP. And, we were far away from our own flagpole so I never had to worry about my boss crying when the CG showed up to hand out impact Bronze Stars to mechanics and wanted to know why in Sam Hell we didn't have our baby tackle dummy corded to our legs.
Anyway...
Even in our situation, common sense and the mission (all too often not the same thing) dictated that we carry the things we needed to get the job done, nothing else, and STILL our individual loads were often oppressive. And, since most guys didn't really appreciate having to take the CA guys out, we often coordinated to redistribute part of the escorting unit's load on us.
We weren't carrying one piece of stupid gear just because some knucklehead said we had to. Still... man... I fondly remember bopping around in an LBV, medium ruck and K pot "back then".
I have to acknowledge that my contemporary operational experience is only in Iraq and can only imagine guys out for days on end with all the crap we carried.
In war there is no prize for the runner-up.
I dunno... could you repeat that in English?
I'm guessing these were the terms that seemed unclear. You can google the translations for photos.
SAPI = Small Arms Protective Insert
Basic Load = varies by weapon/unit; often shorthand for "7 30-round magazines"
7 banger = 7 magazines? I guess redundant give "basic load" above
Camelback = water bladder 64 to 120oz, usually; google it for a photo
IFAK = Individual First Aid Kit
ACOG = Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight
PEC = I think that refers to a PEQ-4
As for JEMS and Grip Pod, you got me. Must be something that came out after I ETS'd.
Grippods appear to be getting very popular, also with the Brits.
Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)
All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
(Arthur Schopenhauer)
ONWARD
Thanks for that effort. I think the JEMS is an "intra team radio" and the gripod is a bipod for the rifle as per other posted info..
In regards to the Chechen experience,
This is a relevant, interesting and all-too obvious lesson that is not unique to any theatre or time-period (but in this case relates to the 1994/5 Chechyan War):
http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/kaimov.pdfOne piece of Russian equipment that the Chechens initially used but soon discarded was individual protective gear. The Chechens found the use of helmets and body armor (flak jackets) impaired the mobility of their fighters in the urban environment. Already weighted down with ammunition and supplies the Chechens found that when they used captured body armor it led to a higher rate of Chechen casualties due to the loss of speed and mobility.
The SWJ library is an amazing resource that I never really appreciated until this afternoon - what was supposed to be a quick scan to brush up on what actually happened in Chechnya turned into a four hour marathon.
An army serves national policy, and right now it seems that national policy for the western world is directing that you have to go into harms way you do so with the best and most lavish equipment available.
'...the gods of war are capricious, and boldness often brings better results than reason would predict.'
Donald Kagan
Harking back to an earlier post - it's 0120 and insomnia and pain are a bitch. What is snivel?
It's not an issue what you carry when you are a young soldier etc in the field, as people seemed to accept it as part of the job. 20 years later fighting your compensation claim it all seems too long ago to the pen pushers in the other side of the desk.
One thing I noticed in my field (I was a clerk) was the increased number of females and older folks as my career (1977 - 1995). This example fro the early 1990s was on an exercise defending an air base in the in the Outback of Australia. No prizes for guessing where.
One section/squad of seven or eight guys in the field was nicknamed 'Dad's Army' as they has a combined average age of 52, which was only because one guy was 28! They had to carry the same kit as the younger fellas so eventually many of the older guys lot ended up on full pensions over the next few years, as they went on more ground war exercises, for stuffed backs and joints. I couldn't envisage them being deployed to patrol in theatre.
The males ended up building the bunkers, carrying the heavy kit, laying the barbed wire etc. When you see a WOD (RSM), two Staff Sergeants, and a Corporal at 33 who was the youngest laying sandbags in 90 degree plus heat and high humidity, and all the younger troops (exclusively female) are inside because they couldn't phyically carry them you knew something was wrong. We were told it was NOT to be inlcuded in the post-exercise report.
Was this an issue in Iraq as I haven't seen any thing on it?
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