Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll

[Danny]

I am assuming, Schmedlap, that the low hanging fruit has been picked for the other gear like it has for body armor. It really doesn't make any difference to the warrior whether the weight is coming from his backpack, hydration system, first aid supplies (for Corpsmen or Combat lifesaver), ammunition or body armor.

The point is that we can fiddle with the small stuff that won't make any difference, or we can attack the large stuff that will. ESAPIs are the gold mine. Fix this problem and you fix the problem of battle space weight.

[Schmedlap]

I think that where the weight is carried is very significant. Years of humping a 60 to 120 pound ALICE pack - before the advent of the interceptor or SAPIs - always sucked, no matter how much training preceded it. Patrolling in 85 pounds of gear distributed around my torso was nothing.

I agree that reducing ESAPI weight would be a significant step in reducing overall weight. But I also think that even if we reduced the amount of weight on the torso to zero, things aren't going to change all that much for the guy humping a ruck in the mountains of Afghanistan. Let Soldiers patrol those mountains with just a rucksack and no vest/plates/load-carrying equipment/etc and they're still going to develop the muscular-skeletal problems discussed. Figure out a way for them to patrol with the standard equipment that Soldiers have in Iraq, but no ruck, and I think the problem goes away.

Unfortunately, for the Soldier in Afghanistan, I don't see any way to supply him with water, food, batteries, and ammunition without requiring him to carry it.

[Danny]

With the above.

Best,

HPS

[carl]

Unfortunately, for the Soldier in Afghanistan, I don't see any way to supply him with water, food, batteries, and ammunition without requiring him to carry it.

How about pack animals?

[politicsbyothermeans]

The question I asked myself, and had my Team Sergeant ask our bubbas, is "Do I really need this?" If the answer was no, put it in your bugout bag or in the truck. If the answer was yes, hang it somewhere. Even so, the reality of our tactical situation often had us with loads that were certainly a consideration in planning the missions. Our agility was certainly not what it would have been without the armor but I imagine agility is also heavily degraded when 7.62x39 or shrapnel are investigating your innards. Not a truly serious point there but I can safely say that I saw guys saved by their armor and I can't think of a single instance where someone was wounded/killed as a result of wearing their armor.

There is little doubt that the weight of gear needs to be reduced but I'll be darned if I can find where that is going to happen. Sure, lighter armor is a good place to start. But, the truth of the matter is that it is on the leadership to evaluate the tactical situation and plan the approach load appropriately. That is, until Mother Army gets around to designing our nano everything gear.

[Surferbeetle]

...reported on this a while back, interesting, but I am not sure about it's practicality in the real world. I suspect that's why we are still issued rucks

Politicsbyothermeans,

Vehicles are indeed nice to have. Good to see another ca-bubba here.

Regards,

Steve

[William F. Owen]

But, the truth of the matter is that it is on the leadership to evaluate the tactical situation and plan the approach load appropriately.

Methods for doing that have existed for nearly 100 years, yet the US Army does not employ them. Each time I brief a solution, there's the old "Oh we can't do that." - "too dangerous, too risky, we'll get sued etc etc etc."

Everything I see, says the situation is set to get worse.

[politicsbyothermeans]

Methods for doing that have existed for nearly 100 years, yet the US Army does not employ them. Each time I brief a solution, there's the old "Oh we can't do that." - "too dangerous, too risky, we'll get sued etc etc etc."

Everything I see, says the situation is set to get worse.

Agreed.

If only we could remember to worry less about our OERs and more about our dudes, we might not be having this discussion right now.

[bismark17]

It reminds me of the Ranger telling me about how he jumped into Grenada with 100 pounds of light weight gear.

[Schmedlap]

How about pack animals?

I think that addresses the medical concerns, but not always the tactical ones. I understand some ODAs had good experiences with them. But I can't imagine that working well for the types of missions that an Infantry Battalion will be doing; at least not to a degree where the Soldiers will all be able to ditch their rucks.

[Bullmoose Bailey]

Must feel that the process has now reached certain logical conclusions.

Wish to address armour on men & trucks.

(not tanks since I feel armour belongs on them...seperate issue)

The flak vest and gun shield have evolved into quite obtuse systems which constrict movement severely.

In the nature of adaptation the counter to Coalition vehicular plate overcastings has been the implementation of penetrating devices, commonly called EFPs , which essentially render all vehicle armor useless.

I expect that armour penetrating rounds could be improvised for sniper rifles, etc. that would place dismounts in the same over-dressed, unprotected state.

Change is continuous in all conflict.

[Schmedlap]

I remember a Pentagon briefing, several years ago, when the MOLLE gear was first being introduced and the latest ruck was being modeled. A spokesman on the podium said something to the effect of, "this new ruck will allow Soldiers to carry 150 pound loads comfortably." And, to demonstrate, a short, older woman wearing spit-shined jumpboots was standing proudly on the podium, sporting the full ruck, apparently quite comfortable with it bearing down on her shoulders (I have no idea whether it was full of ammo or pillows).

While I do not miss the lackluster training or garrison-minded madness of the pre-9/11 force, I have to admit that spectacles like that did provide for an occasional good laugh.

[BayonetBrant]

For the guys at PEO-Soldier, I wish to offer this nugget, from a guy who's schlepped many a bag on his back over the years (military and civilian) -

There is no comfortable way to carry 150 pounds of gear. There are varying ranges of discomfort, but it'll never feel as good as when you take the pack off.

[Sylvan]

Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.

90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.

Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.

What would you have me leave behind?

[carl]

As an always been a civilian, I will risk getting excoriated for the following comments by those who've been there and done that.

The Romans put a lot of effort into building extremely good roads so their soldiers could march those distances with those loads.

"a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite."
This quote begs the question-why just the most elite? Why not everybody else? Wouldn't there be more options available if the less elite could stay out as long? Wouldn't it be easier to stay out so long if less weight was carried.

"Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable." The question isn't whether it can be done. The important question is can it be done so as to keep the Taliban looking over their shoulders thinking those guys might be gaining on them.

"What would you have me leave behind?" I talked to a South African once who went on long patrols in Namibia. They were allowed to take what they wanted and thought they could carry and still move at the speed required. I think our people should be trusted to take what they want and leave what they don't need.

[Ken White]

...The important question is can it be done so as to keep the Taliban looking over their shoulders thinking those guys might be gaining on them.
...
I think our people should be trusted to take what they want and leave what they don't need.

Both items...

Actually, the first is not, the fact that we are not doing that as often or as well as most over there wish is however, very risk averse, USA Today-ish. The second probably really is un-American. It certainly is un-
Armyish...

[qp4]

"a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite."
This quote begs the question-why just the most elite?

Five days of expected contact is a really long time, no matter the war.

One of the things I think that is missing from this thread is what is the combat load of a long range recce light and what is the combat load of a mounted Soldier. Maybe it's a cavalry thing, but off-ramping into a fight is a lot different load out than what is carried onto the vehicle as part of the SOP packing list. Hopping off for a 5 and 25 is usually vest and weapon, which is a lot different than what you take for an OP or even a shorter SKT.

GI Zhou pointed out that the biggest thing is water. In my OIFs and NTCs that was the back breaker. We'd go out for a day or two, and someone had to carry the jug.

[Uboat509]

Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.

90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.

Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.

What would you have me leave behind?

That would depend on the mission. There are times when body armor is need and times when it is not. There are also times when 7 bangs might be needed and times when they would probably not. Other things could also be adjusted as needed.

[GI Zhou]

That would depend on the mission. There are times when body armor is need and times when it is not. There are also times when 7 bangs might be needed and times when they would probably not. Other things could also be adjusted as needed.

An Australian infantry warrant officer, weel versed in hidstory, did a study on weights carried by the Britsh then Australian soldier since 1788. Guess what, nothings changed weight wise. As soon as someone develops a lighter weapon, ammunition another piece of equipment is added.

I trained with 16kg of equipment, (I never went on ops and in my day theer was little bosy armour about), plus weapon normally a L2 7.62x51mm automatic rifle (same weight as a SAW) or SLR (FN-FAL) or Steyr AUG. This included equivalent weights of ammuniton (270 rounds of 5.56mm or 180/200 rounds of 7.62mm) cleaning kit, four litres of water, trauma kit, a simple swiss army knife attached to my shirt with a long piece of 'hootchie' cord, Buck clasp knife atatched to my belt, torch and a brew kit good for 48 hours.

I worked in the derst/tropical savannah and I had space for a night sight and an old wooden handled entrenching and radio if need be and food as I felt I needed it. being the assistant or squad commander and carrying the AR meant no radio. The ground was like rock. One karrabiner was carried as I put my rifle sling through it. Good for closing cut concertina wire too.

Go from an operational unit to a REMF unit and they expected you to carry everything but the kitchen sink. Thought they were fighting NATO Central and the many of the girls collapsed under the weight before they even started!

I don't think people realise the biggest issues are water, food and now batteries. If you can't go without a meal for 24 hours except sweets, canned stone fruits and coffee/tea you really are in the wrong business.

If operating in snow or cold wet weather the weight changes considerably and outside this discussion as it becomes a battle against the elements as much as the enemy.

[JMA]

Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.

90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.

Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.

What would you have me leave behind?

I dunno... could you repeat that in English?