The question I asked myself, and had my Team Sergeant ask our bubbas, is "Do I really need this?" If the answer was no, put it in your bugout bag or in the truck. If the answer was yes, hang it somewhere. Even so, the reality of our tactical situation often had us with loads that were certainly a consideration in planning the missions. Our agility was certainly not what it would have been without the armor but I imagine agility is also heavily degraded when 7.62x39 or shrapnel are investigating your innards. Not a truly serious point there but I can safely say that I saw guys saved by their armor and I can't think of a single instance where someone was wounded/killed as a result of wearing their armor.
There is little doubt that the weight of gear needs to be reduced but I'll be darned if I can find where that is going to happen. Sure, lighter armor is a good place to start. But, the truth of the matter is that it is on the leadership to evaluate the tactical situation and plan the approach load appropriately. That is, until Mother Army gets around to designing our nano everything gear.
In war there is no prize for the runner-up.
...reported on this a while back, interesting, but I am not sure about it's practicality in the real world. I suspect that's why we are still issued rucks
Politicsbyothermeans,
Vehicles are indeed nice to have. Good to see another ca-bubba here.
Regards,
Steve
Sapere Aude
Methods for doing that have existed for nearly 100 years, yet the US Army does not employ them. Each time I brief a solution, there's the old "Oh we can't do that." - "too dangerous, too risky, we'll get sued etc etc etc."
Everything I see, says the situation is set to get worse.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
It reminds me of the Ranger telling me about how he jumped into Grenada with 100 pounds of light weight gear.
I think that addresses the medical concerns, but not always the tactical ones. I understand some ODAs had good experiences with them. But I can't imagine that working well for the types of missions that an Infantry Battalion will be doing; at least not to a degree where the Soldiers will all be able to ditch their rucks.
Must feel that the process has now reached certain logical conclusions.
Wish to address armour on men & trucks.
(not tanks since I feel armour belongs on them...seperate issue)
The flak vest and gun shield have evolved into quite obtuse systems which constrict movement severely.
In the nature of adaptation the counter to Coalition vehicular plate overcastings has been the implementation of penetrating devices, commonly called EFPs , which essentially render all vehicle armor useless.
I expect that armour penetrating rounds could be improvised for sniper rifles, etc. that would place dismounts in the same over-dressed, unprotected state.
Change is continuous in all conflict.
I remember a Pentagon briefing, several years ago, when the MOLLE gear was first being introduced and the latest ruck was being modeled. A spokesman on the podium said something to the effect of, "this new ruck will allow Soldiers to carry 150 pound loads comfortably." And, to demonstrate, a short, older woman wearing spit-shined jumpboots was standing proudly on the podium, sporting the full ruck, apparently quite comfortable with it bearing down on her shoulders (I have no idea whether it was full of ammo or pillows).
While I do not miss the lackluster training or garrison-minded madness of the pre-9/11 force, I have to admit that spectacles like that did provide for an occasional good laugh.
For the guys at PEO-Soldier, I wish to offer this nugget, from a guy who's schlepped many a bag on his back over the years (military and civilian) -
There is no comfortable way to carry 150 pounds of gear. There are varying ranges of discomfort, but it'll never feel as good as when you take the pack off.
Brant
Wargaming and Strategy Gaming at Armchair Dragoons
Military news and views at GrogNews
“their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of ‘rights’… and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure.” Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers 1959
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Roman legion humped 25 miles a day with 70 pounds of armor and kit if Vegetius is to be believed.
90% of the soldiers who got hurt wearing armor (or at least claimed it for the VA) were out of shape pogues who failed to prepare themselves physically.
a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite.
Standard kit.
Front and Rear Sapi
Basic load
2 frags
smoke
7 banger
JEMS
Camelback
Pistol (which I always say I will leave behind but never do)
IFAK
100 round saw pouch with binos/laser/pen flares/CLP/boresnake/GPS
Compass
M4/ACOG/PEC/Flashlight/Grip Pod (yes, I used it and liked it.)
Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable. I also ran on days not out of the wire.
What would you have me leave behind?
As an always been a civilian, I will risk getting excoriated for the following comments by those who've been there and done that.
The Romans put a lot of effort into building extremely good roads so their soldiers could march those distances with those loads.
"a 5 day dismounted romp is a pretty rare excusion for all but the most elite."
This quote begs the question-why just the most elite? Why not everybody else? Wouldn't there be more options available if the less elite could stay out as long? Wouldn't it be easier to stay out so long if less weight was carried.
"Humped klicks uphill and down, and, while tiring, is doable." The question isn't whether it can be done. The important question is can it be done so as to keep the Taliban looking over their shoulders thinking those guys might be gaining on them.
"What would you have me leave behind?" I talked to a South African once who went on long patrols in Namibia. They were allowed to take what they wanted and thought they could carry and still move at the speed required. I think our people should be trusted to take what they want and leave what they don't need.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Five days of expected contact is a really long time, no matter the war.
One of the things I think that is missing from this thread is what is the combat load of a long range recce light and what is the combat load of a mounted Soldier. Maybe it's a cavalry thing, but off-ramping into a fight is a lot different load out than what is carried onto the vehicle as part of the SOP packing list. Hopping off for a 5 and 25 is usually vest and weapon, which is a lot different than what you take for an OP or even a shorter SKT.
GI Zhou pointed out that the biggest thing is water. In my OIFs and NTCs that was the back breaker. We'd go out for a day or two, and someone had to carry the jug.
Few are the problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of concentrated firepower.
An Australian infantry warrant officer, weel versed in hidstory, did a study on weights carried by the Britsh then Australian soldier since 1788. Guess what, nothings changed weight wise. As soon as someone develops a lighter weapon, ammunition another piece of equipment is added.
I trained with 16kg of equipment, (I never went on ops and in my day theer was little bosy armour about), plus weapon normally a L2 7.62x51mm automatic rifle (same weight as a SAW) or SLR (FN-FAL) or Steyr AUG. This included equivalent weights of ammuniton (270 rounds of 5.56mm or 180/200 rounds of 7.62mm) cleaning kit, four litres of water, trauma kit, a simple swiss army knife attached to my shirt with a long piece of 'hootchie' cord, Buck clasp knife atatched to my belt, torch and a brew kit good for 48 hours.
I worked in the derst/tropical savannah and I had space for a night sight and an old wooden handled entrenching and radio if need be and food as I felt I needed it. being the assistant or squad commander and carrying the AR meant no radio. The ground was like rock. One karrabiner was carried as I put my rifle sling through it. Good for closing cut concertina wire too.
Go from an operational unit to a REMF unit and they expected you to carry everything but the kitchen sink. Thought they were fighting NATO Central and the many of the girls collapsed under the weight before they even started!
I don't think people realise the biggest issues are water, food and now batteries. If you can't go without a meal for 24 hours except sweets, canned stone fruits and coffee/tea you really are in the wrong business.
If operating in snow or cold wet weather the weight changes considerably and outside this discussion as it becomes a battle against the elements as much as the enemy.
We won't ever break down our loads to what the taliban carries.
I have run down taliban when using effective fire and manuever. You overall weight isn't going to change much, as somebody here noted. You train to the load and thats as fast as you are going to go.
I dropped side sapis for most missions unless actually doing a raid.
A 5 day mission is a recce. You are going to trade armor and ammo for food and batteries (or solar charger) YOu aren't going to be looking for trouble.
In a firefight, you want the armor. It doesn't beat cover, but allows you to take risks under fire you wouldn't take otherwise. I fought fine with my load and I wouldn't trade my two main plates for anything else.
You will note that food wasn't on there. All I had was goo packets in my pants pockets. I got hungry, but food isn't a priority.
Taliban carried an ICOM, 3 mags and a bag of chinese vet pills.
My load will never be close to that level regardless, so trying to out light fight the taliban is a stupid direction to go.
You want to slow up the taliban? Aviation or fix with fires.
The tables tend to be fixed at the worst times. We call it "sticking to the SOP (standard operating procedure)", and unfortunately, there are more times than not where little thought is applied to just what needs to be carried, where it should be located on one's body, and why it is needed in the first place.
Take the current USMC-issued first aid kit. It tends towards the bulky and almost unnecessary when you look at the components. The trauma supplied as essential, for sure, but the boo-boo kit takes up about half of its girth, and yet the corpsman carries copious quantities of small bandages, salves, and the like. I trimmed mine down to just the trauma care pieces and moved the rest to a small pouch in my camelbak on my back, and the remnant is still bigger than I wish it was.
As a military, we learned some bad lessons from our smaller conflicts, such as Task Force Ranger's fight in Mogadishu in 1993, where night vision was not carried on the raid, yet reportedly was desired when day turned to night. The actual effectiveness of any IR optics without IR aiming lights remains dubious if you ask me, yet that scenario was trumped out during Officer Candidate School for me a few years later. We hoard gear as a result of the urban legends surrounding incidents like that.
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