Page 15 of 16 FirstFirst ... 513141516 LastLast
Results 281 to 300 of 301

Thread: Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll

  1. #281
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,221

    Default

    I think Jim Storr's book 'The Human face of War' has been mentioned elsewhere; it looks at many modern aspects of modern war, not IIRC the weight of combat kit, certainly command & control. A paperback edition is due out, though not shown here:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Human-Face-W.../dp/1847065236

    Thanks to JMA for the copy of the BAR article 'Donkeys Led by Lions'. As the BAR is still print only and kept within the UK military, very few outsiders will have seen that.

    At a recent presentation a British soldier displayed his kit, he was the Section machine gunner and explained if he laid down he had to helped up so heavy was his load. Asked if it was practical he said no and hinted as much as possible was dumped If the OiC was brave enough and no-one was watching.
    davidbfpo

  2. #282
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    67

    Default

    If you ask US Army LRS what type of missions they do in Afghanistan, they will give you answer - recce. Overt recce in Hummwees, more like kind of demonstrative overwatch. Only very few units dare to ditch body armour (one mission mentioned in "No Easy Day" - good book) including SOF units. If they go like: "OK donīt wear it, but if you get killed, your family probably gets no money" what you gonna do?

    Just for adding a bit of (ironic) fun to this sad thread:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X6HnOA88vw
    (end of the video is relevant to our discussed problem)

  3. #283
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Wider appreciation for risk aversion and overloading might be developed by ordering that duty wear for HQ personnel include body armour and 24 hours of water. Any such regimen would need to apply without exception.
    It would presumably be necessary to enforce aperiodic checks of armour and containers.

    The residual difficulty would be finding senior officers prepared to issue such orders.

    So return to square one. The starting and restarting point where chiefs lay out unvarnished options and politicians make the decisions which can/should/might be publicised.

  4. #284
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    Carl,

    This weight issue will not easlily be solved. The rotations are getting shorter and as a result commanders only start to get the idea when they are on the way home.

    From a book currently to hand - and a re-read for the umpteenth time we hear 20 year old 2Lt Sidney Jary who learned the lesson early after D-Day (1944) has to convince his new/replacement company commander to allow his platoon - which was to be the forward platoon of the forward company in the attack on the town of Bedburg - to leave the small packs behind so as to allow them to 'move faster'.

    From page 102, 18 Platoon by Sidney Jary:

    I asked Freddie if 18 Platoon could fight without small packs until we had consolidated at Bedburg. If we could leave them on the Company transport with our picks and shovels we could certainly move faster. Freddie had not been with the Company when we had made our rapid advance at Vernonnet and did not understand the advantage that could be gained by very rapid movement in the type of situation which I sensed now existed. After some discussion, he finally agreed and 18 Platoon with considerable relief loaded their small packs into the 15 hundredweight Bedford.
    Carl, you will find this book worth the cost or the effort to find a cheaper copy someplace else as this outstanding officer managed, writing some 40 years after the war to explain his wartime experiences better than anyone else I know of. Much of what gets discussed around here were experienced back then and the lessons learned. Annoying that so many youngsters of today - and sadly others too - perfer to talk about issues rather than read to learn and benefit from the experiences of others. We remain a long way from enlightned discussion around here.

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    I re-read that article and the thing about it that was even more distressing than the soldiers carrying too much weight was the HQs burdening themselves with so much useless make work that they are approaching the point where they can't function. They sling a lot of trons, the HQ people are all sleep deprived from overwork and mountains of 'product' are produced but they are approaching the point where they can't do what they exist for, guide and assist troops in combat. Napoleon and Grant did that for hundreds of thousands of men with pen and paper.

    We are in a bad place.

  5. #285
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    67

    Default

    Thanks for a good read tip JMA. Prices are insane, however I will try to ask around to borrow the book.

  6. #286
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    Try this place, cheapest I know of:

    http://www.riflesdirect.com/18-platoon-1053-p.asp


    Quote Originally Posted by BushrangerCZ View Post
    Thanks for a good read tip JMA. Prices are insane, however I will try to ask around to borrow the book.

  7. #287
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    67

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Try this place, cheapest I know of:

    http://www.riflesdirect.com/18-platoon-1053-p.asp
    Thanks for a link!

  8. #288
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    SOCAL
    Posts
    2,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Compost View Post
    Wider appreciation for risk aversion and overloading might be developed by ordering that duty wear for HQ personnel include body armour and 24 hours of water. Any such regimen would need to apply without exception.
    It would presumably be necessary to enforce aperiodic checks of armour and containers.

    The residual difficulty would be finding senior officers prepared to issue such orders.

    So return to square one. The starting and restarting point where chiefs lay out unvarnished options and politicians make the decisions which can/should/might be publicised.
    I am stealing this.

  9. #289
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,221

    Default Sidney Jary and a bonus or two

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    From a book currently to hand - and a re-read for the umpteenth time we hear 20 year old 2Lt Sidney Jary who learned the lesson early after D-Day (1944) has to convince his new/replacement company commander to allow his platoon - which was to be the forward platoon of the forward company in the attack on the town of Bedburg - to leave the small packs behind so as to allow them to 'move faster':18 Platoon by Sidney Jary:
    I've not this book so wondered about the author. ARSSEE has this from 2008, which refers to other recommended books, only George McDonald Fraser's have I read:
    Yes I believe Sydney Jary is still very much alive and well. He is a regular contributor to the British Army Review (BAR). The latest issue BAR 144 has an excellent article by him on "Readjustment". This covers the end of the War in Germany and demob, as far as 18 Platoon were concerned. The Platoon have arrived at Wilstedt, North of Bremen, having fought all the way from Normandy to get there. It ends with Sydney leaving his beloved 18 Platoon of the SLI and going back to the Hampshires.

    In my humble opinion his book - 18 Platoon, Brigadier ED "Birdie" Smiths - Even The Brave Falter, George MacDonald Frasers - Quartered Safe Out Here and Major Bill Bellamy's - Troop Leader are the best and most human books written about WW2.
    Link:http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thr...platoon.88903/

    Sidney Jary is still alive, he retired ten years ago from giving talks to officers cadets @ Sandhurst and is still spritely - from a friend who saw him recently.

    In my Google search I found this fasconating extract from Anthony King's 2013 book 'The Combat Soldier: Infantry Tactics and Cohesion in the Twentieth and Twenty-First Centuries (another book I'd missed, after all I've never been a soldier ):http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R...20Jary&f=false

    Link to Amazon.uk for this expensive book:http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Combat-S...pr_product_top
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 08-03-2014 at 12:16 PM. Reason: fix last link, thanks Kiwigrunt
    davidbfpo

  10. #290
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    13,221

    Default 1066 to 2014

    The Daily Telegraph has a set of photos showing a soldier's kit from 1066 to 2014, mainly those who served in the British Army and the photo is the latest:


    From:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...?frame=2994181
    davidbfpo

  11. #291
    Council Member Kiwigrunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Auckland New Zealand
    Posts
    467

    Default

    Mark and David, I hate you guys. If I end up destitute, it will be your fault. But at least – if I end up living in a cardboard box – I shall have some nice books in it.

    18 Platoon: ordered (been chasing this for years).
    The Combat Soldier: still pondering, credit card dangerously within range.
    (The Human Face of War: also still pondering.)
    Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)

    All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
    (Arthur Schopenhauer)

    ONWARD

  12. #292
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    Sydney Jary MC, is unique because he brings perspective to his narratives. A proven battlefield commander able to translate his experiences into a tool for the enlightenment and education of soldiers, especially young officers to be.

    A book that needs to be re-read periodically IMHO as I discover new perspectives with each re-read. A classic.

    Herewith an article from him in the J R Army Med Corps in 2000:

    Reflections on the Relationship Between the Led and the Leader

    Pure magic... don't know about the last paragraph though.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I've not this book so wondered about the author. ARSSEE has this from 2008, which refers to other recommended books, only George McDonald Fraser's have I read:

    Link:http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thr...platoon.88903/

    Sidney Jary is still alive, he retired ten years ago from giving talks to officers cadets @ Sandhurst and is still spritely - from a friend who saw him recently.

    In my Google search I found this fasconating extract from Anthony King's 2013 book 'The Combat Soldier: Infantry Tactics and Cohesion in the Twentieth and Twenty-First Centuries (another book I'd missed, after all I've never been a soldier ):http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R...20Jary&f=false

    Link to Amazon.uk for this expensive book:http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R...page&q&f=false

  13. #293
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    While some might disagree with aspects of the odd selection, especially when it comes to the older stuff, this is a stunning way to browse through the ages. Great way to present and compare kit through the ages. Kudos to the guy who came up with it and for the Telegraph to feature it.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  14. #294
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Durban, South Africa
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    From the sandals and beret for example there are a number of items which would surely not be taken on four hour foot patrol?

    Does anyone have a list of items with individual weights?


    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    The Daily Telegraph has a set of photos showing a soldier's kit from 1066 to 2014, mainly those who served in the British Army and the photo is the latest:


    From:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...?frame=2994181

  15. #295
    Council Member carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Denver on occasion
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    I don't know which is why I am asking, but of how much utility are knee pads? It seems to me, no practical experience have I, that kneeling is sort of a betwixt and between position, it doesn't seem as if you could see and move as good as you could standing and you aren't as stable for shooting and are much more visible than prone. And humans aren't really constructed to kneel for long periods of time.

    Like I said, I have no practical experience but everybody seems to have knee pads and I wonder how useful they really are.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  16. #296
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Green Mountains
    Posts
    356

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    I don't know which is why I am asking, but of how much utility are knee pads? It seems to me, no practical experience have I, that kneeling is sort of a betwixt and between position, it doesn't seem as if you could see and move as good as you could standing and you aren't as stable for shooting and are much more visible than prone. And humans aren't really constructed to kneel for long periods of time.

    Like I said, I have no practical experience but everybody seems to have knee pads and I wonder how useful they really are.
    Taking a knee on patrol is pretty common, especially in the IED environment. And sometimes microterrain makes it a good idea regardless. Knee pads look (non-PC pejorative), but they're a plus in an urban environment or on other really hard ground. Most of Helmand, not necessary IMO.

  17. #297
    Council Member Chris jM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Sydney Jary MC, is unique because he brings perspective to his narratives. A proven battlefield commander able to translate his experiences into a tool for the enlightenment and education of soldiers, especially young officers to be.
    JMA, what did you think of Sydney Jary's view on popular opinion versus the reality of men suited for soldiering? I remember he mentioned, towards the end of 18 Platoon, that he would prefer to have poets in his platoon that were philosophically inclined and more capable of enduring hardship and suffering than the aggressive, alpha type that is often associated with infantry and elite infantry units.
    '...the gods of war are capricious, and boldness often brings better results than reason would predict.'
    Donald Kagan

  18. #298
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eustis
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BushrangerCZ View Post
    If you ask US Army LRS what type of missions they do in Afghanistan, they will give you answer - recce. Overt recce in Hummwees, more like kind of demonstrative overwatch. Only very few units dare to ditch body armour (one mission mentioned in "No Easy Day" - good book) including SOF units. If they go like: "OK donīt wear it, but if you get killed, your family probably gets no money" what you gonna do?
    Actually, this is an urban myth. For US military, SGLI pays out no matter the cause of death - suicide, not wearing PPE, etc. However, if he survives the wounds, the unit could court-martial him.

    As for kneepads, they help when going prone too, especially in rocky terrain. A sharp hit in the shins is excruciating. The new combat pants with build-in knee pads are awesome and finally solve all the issues about the clunky straps and skiing or skateboarding derivatives with their bulkiness.

    Tankersteve

  19. #299
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Having read and experienced quite a bit of electric mobility and battery technology I have a couple of question regarding the problem of energy consumptions. As jcustis has put it:

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    A two-pronged problem we face in carried loads is centered on the almost unquenchable appetite for battery power. In the first prong we have increased a patrol's carried load for force protection purposes with the addition of body-worn counter-IED devices. In the second prong we have not been disciplined enough to curb our demand for tactical information, which in turn drives up the weight penalty due to the suites of communication equipment carried.

    We have created this vicious circle of demanding unrealistic reporting of reams of information, and it drives dismounted operations to carry ridiculous quantities of batteries to support 24-hour radio usage.

    It goes back to uneducated, ill-informed tactical planning by folks inclined to carry the kitchen sink as insurance against all threats, rather than conduct a smart analysis of requirements and the tactical risks involved.

    1) From what I understand most 'future combat systems' introduce and spread new capabilities which consume additional energy. Far more tactical information with additional elements like tablets/smartphones as well as additional battery-powered things like thermal scopes. From my humble point of view it seems that at the current state those projects should increase the battery load considerably, especially for longer missions. Any ideas on that?

    2) The energy densities for batteries increased over the last two decades at about 7-10% per year with prices coming down even sharper. This positive trend offers high incentives to replace the batteries of various systems at a rather rapid pace. Is this happening?

    3) The demand for energy comes from many different, isolated system with many different batteries. The latter increases considerably the load compared to a few standardized ones for obvious reasons. How far are we down that route?

    I have another couple of points on my mind, for example recharging, but will leave it there for now.

    I'm pretty sure that in decades if not centuries to come that aspect of the combat load, just as the overall one, will be a big topic. Technological advances offer opportunities to lighten it but add true and perceived needs which still will have to be handled properly with good leadership and METT-TC in mind.
    ... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates"

    General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944);
    Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935

  20. #300
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Firn View Post

    2) The energy densities for batteries increased over the last two decades at about 7-10% per year with prices coming down even sharper. This positive trend offers high incentives to replace the batteries of various systems at a rather rapid pace. Is this happening?
    The difference is that the average civilian commercial battery powered device is in use by their owners for maybe 18 months to 3 years at most.

    Most battery powered military devices tend to be in use for at least 10 years and have a range of requirements that civilian batteries doesn't always match.

Similar Threads

  1. Weight of back packed gear study
    By George L. Singleton in forum Trigger Puller
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 11-06-2008, 03:15 PM
  2. Light infantry TOEs
    By Rifleman in forum Trigger Puller
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 05-24-2007, 05:10 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •