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Thread: Weight of Combat Gear Is Taking Toll

  1. #161
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default That's a collection of sensible statments - that do not respond to the request.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    Ken, this is all about knowing your enemy. If the enemy in Afghanistan can't be identified and dealt with is there any wonder why the situation there is getting to be so "difficult"?
    Uh, no, not at all. Most of us understand that's a significant part of the problem that is Afghanistan. however, stating that obvious fact doesn't answer the query: "...hopefully you have some suggestions on how to accurately determine which variant he happens to be..."

    Thus I take it you have no viable suggestions.
    One minute we are being told that the fight is for the "hearts and minds" of the villagers (assuming that the Taliban is some outside force demanding support from the same villagers), the next we are told is that the same villagers are actually the ones using weapons against ISAF. Which one is it?The first, the second or both?
    Umm, how about "'C,' both of the above."
    If its the second or both then surely its time to admit the war for the "hearts and minds" has been lost (in that particular village)? If so then getting rid of the poppies and the opium trade will have no affect on already offsides villager?
    Rather simplistic, don't you think? What about the relatives and friends of those villagers in nearby villages? What about tribal cohesion and xenophobic reaction to outsiders killing local no matter what the problem. More importantly, what about the opinions of those citizens of the western nation whose troops were / are involved and who strongly disagree with your "offsides" assessment or the right of their troops to even make such an assessment in the first place...
    Who said anything about shooting civilians?
    No one. However, your 'gloves off' statement is a really neat example of plausible deniability. Good job.
    If the 'farmer' is a part time insurgent then he is fair game for detention or whatever? Like a bank robber, he does not rob banks everyday but makes a hit now and again when a target presents itself.
    True, and while the Rules of Evidence in the criminal sense do not fully apply, the wily P'than are masters at feigning innocence and outrage at attempts to accuse them of such perfidy. All gaming on their part, I know -- as do the Troops -- but the constraints of western civil society are applied even where totally inappropriate. More regrettably, the media types present in Afghanistan either do not understand just how wily the guy is or they sympathize with him regardless. In many senses, Afghan opinions while important, are not nearly as important as are those of the citizens of western nations involved...

    All that forces the Troops to just keep slogging in a sea of frustrations. That, as they say, is COIN writ large. Regrettably, most such operations and third party interventions are like that. Rarely is one fortunate enough to find the unique series of circumstances that existed in Rhodesia...

    So I can put you down as, like the rest of us, having easily identified the readily apparent problem but having no ready or real solution.
    Last edited by Ken White; 07-08-2010 at 02:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infanteer View Post
    This is a poor assumption to make - one that is assumed by way too many outside viewers. I think it is a case of "situating the estimate" so that some can fit an FM 3-24 solution onto the problem.
    Outside viewer can rightly be concerned that firstly not only the mission in Afghanistan is some what vague but also it seems the troops on the grounds ability to identify their enemy is somewhat confused.

    I sympathise with soldiers on the ground having to operate under such circumstances.

    So the people who are there or have been there say "OK, you tell us who the enemy is and how to deal with him".

    It just gets worse. As the school playground retort "OK, you do better then" doesn't wash when it comes to a war.

    The Brits are of course saying that if that had enough troops and resources for those troops they would have done better and this is true. But we wait their ability to acknowledge that they could have and should have done better tactically as well (without the additional troops and resources).

    Having been in these areas of operation for years now one would have thought that at least the ISAF troops would have been able to identify who their enemy was.

    Is the man hoeing his field today who fired on your troops yesterday your enemy?

    How is it possible to have reached the level of insanity where today because he has a hoe in his hands and no AK47 you greet him in passing and hand out Mars bars and footballs to his kids? Oh yes and the medic, bandages a cut on a village child's foot.

    That night daddy helps plant and IED which kills a soldier the following day daddy is there to take a shot at the CASEVAC helo on its way in with his trusty RPG7.

    Back in his fields the next day he is greeted by a passing patrol and his kids get some more Mars bars and footballs (or maybe a Frisbee this time)... oh yes, and the little girl gets the cut on her hand bandaged.

    The cycle of madness continues.
    Last edited by JMA; 07-09-2010 at 07:38 AM.

  3. #163
    Council Member Red Rat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post

    Having been in these areas of operation for years now one would have thought that at least the ISAF troops would have been able to identify who their enemy was.

    Is the man hoeing his field today who fired on your troops yesterday your enemy?

    How is it possible to have reached the level of insanity where today because he has a hoe in his hands and no AK47 you greet him in passing and hand out Mars bars and footballs to his kids? Oh yes and the medic, bandages a cut on a village child's foot.

    That night daddy helps plant and IED which kills a soldier the following day daddy is there to take a shot at the CASEVAC helo on its way in with his trusty RPG7.

    Back in his fields the next day he is greeted by a passing patrol and his kids get some more Mars bars and footballs (or maybe a Frisbee this time)... oh yes, and the little girl gets the cut on her hand bandaged.

    The cycle of madness continues.
    The application of biometrics and forensic techniques (swabbing for explosives residue et al) is making it both easier to identify individuals (many of whom do not carry ID with them) and easier to identify individuals involved in illegal activities.

    However we have no legal right to detain indefinitely and it is very difficult to get a prosecution through AFG courts. So, we take an individual's biometrics, he tests positive for having fired a firearm, he gets arrested, handed over to the ANP and then released 24 hours later either for lack of evidence or because he has paid a bribe. He then returns to the village...

    On most patrols and operations the ANP and ANA provide an IFF (Identification Friend or Foe - RAF talk!) capability as they know the people in a way that outsiders would take decades to develop. So they can spot relative outsiders, whether from the next village, valley, province or country.

    One of the key lessons from Iraq was that you had to know who the population was first, before you could start to build up any meaningful insurgent identity database. If everyone carries 3-5 (valid) IDs in different names (or no IDs at all), where there has been no census so you do not know who is supposed to live where and with whom, then it is very difficult to join the dots. Hence the introduction of biometrics on the battlefield and the push for units to conduct a census. Once that is established and we have a working justice framework then we might get somewhere faster.

    Oh - but this is Afghanistan! So you also have to factor in that Tribe X runs the ANP which Tribe Y resents (mostly because a large part of the money raised through extortion comes from them), so Tribe Y attacks you because you are seen as supporting the police (they don't actually support the Taleban at all). You cannot significantly change the composition of the local ANP because the Chief of Police has paid his $40k monthly retainer to the Ministry of Interior to ensure his security of tenure (he recoups the money (plus) through his ANP) and because his tribe has traditionally been the dominant tribe in the area and therefore holds more political sway in Kabul. The ANP Chief of Police also keeps his links to the Taleban open just in case the Coalition leaves, and, as in any good arrangement, there is a bit of mutual give and take to keep things moving reasonably smoothly. The NDS (Security Service) is very professional, but politically an unknown quantity and there are continuing legal issues about handing over prisoners or intelligence to them or using intelligence provided by them; a tricky issue often encountered when a Liberal Western Democracy tries to aid a non-Liberal, non-Western sort of democracy in its endeavours...
    Welcome to Afghanistan!
    Last edited by Red Rat; 07-09-2010 at 08:14 AM. Reason: typo
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  4. #164
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rat View Post
    However we have no legal right to detain indefinitely and it is very difficult to get a prosecution through AFG courts. So, we take an individual's biometrics, he tests positive for having fired a firearm, he gets arrested, handed over to the ANP and then released 24 hours later either for lack of evidence or because he has paid a bribe. He then returns to the village...

    On most patrols and operations the ANP and ANA provide an IFF (Identification Friend or Foe - RAF talk!) capability as they know the people in a way that outsiders would take decades to develop. So they can spot relative outsiders, whether from the next village, valley, province or country.
    As I think I may have pointed out before, the two primary pillars of conducting Irregular Warfare do not exist.
    Doesn't matter really how good we get if we cannot detain and we cannot track and ID, in terms of building intelligence.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

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    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rat View Post
    One of the key lessons from Iraq was that you had to know who the population was first, before you could start to build up any meaningful insurgent identity database. If everyone carries 3-5 (valid) IDs in different names (or no IDs at all), where there has been no census so you do not know who is supposed to live where and with whom, then it is very difficult to join the dots. Hence the introduction of biometrics on the battlefield and the push for units to conduct a census. Once that is established and we have a working justice framework then we might get somewhere faster.
    And good luck with that. When I was in Sarposa Prison in Khar (as a visitor, I got to leave), the warden was still struggling to maintain an ID system for inmates for the reason that you mention (no birth certificates, multiple IDs.) The best they could do was a loose leaf folder of mug shots but the camera that the ANA who ran the prison had kept breaking. Well, there were other problems, but I can't see doing a head count in a country in which the putative authorities can't even put names to the people under 24 hour detention.

  6. #166
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Scientists create 'custard armour' to protect soldiers

    Couldn't resist this, no doubt a brilliant scientific discovery, but the headline is great! Subtitled:
    British scientists have created a liquid body armour suit that hardens and absorbs shrapnel on impact using – "bullet-proof custard".
    Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-soldiers.html

    Might offer less body armour weight to carry.
    davidbfpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rat View Post
    Oh - but this is Afghanistan! So you also have to factor in that Tribe X runs the ANP which Tribe Y resents (mostly because a large part of the money raised through extortion comes from them), so Tribe Y attacks you because you are seen as supporting the police (they don't actually support the Taleban at all). You cannot significantly change the composition of the local ANP because the Chief of Police has paid his $40k monthly retainer to the Ministry of Interior to ensure his security of tenure (he recoups the money (plus) through his ANP) and because his tribe has traditionally been the dominant tribe in the area and therefore holds more political sway in Kabul. The ANP Chief of Police also keeps his links to the Taleban open just in case the Coalition leaves, and, as in any good arrangement, there is a bit of mutual give and take to keep things moving reasonably smoothly. The NDS (Security Service) is very professional, but politically an unknown quantity and there are continuing legal issues about handing over prisoners or intelligence to them or using intelligence provided by them; a tricky issue often encountered when a Liberal Western Democracy tries to aid a non-Liberal, non-Western sort of democracy in its endeavours...
    Welcome to Afghanistan!
    Well it is a problem when the ISAF forces are seen to be defending the indefensible. A corrupt and illegitimate government and a corrupt system. On a hiding to nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rat View Post
    However we have no legal right to detain indefinitely and it is very difficult to get a prosecution through AFG courts. So, we take an individual's biometrics, he tests positive for having fired a firearm, he gets arrested, handed over to the ANP and then released 24 hours later either for lack of evidence or because he has paid a bribe. He then returns to the village...
    A mere technicality like this has never been allowed to get in the way of the Brits before, so why now?

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMA View Post
    A mere technicality like this has never been allowed to get in the way of the Brits before, so why now?
    ....cos we're drinking the bong water and not trying to win wars. We're "nation building."
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  11. #171
    Council Member Infanteer's Avatar
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    Hey, at least it is cutting-edge, academic level bong water!

  12. #172
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Default Not surprised, but nice to see the Falklands reference

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ghanistan.html

    Britain's 'donkey' soldiers are losing the war in Afghanistan
    A senior Army officer has warned that Britain risks losing the war in Afghanistan because commanders are more concerned with protecting soldiers than defeating the Taliban.

    tacking the British strategy in Helmand, the officer claims that soldiers are now so laden with equipment they are unable to launch effective attacks against insurgents.

    The controversial account of situation in Afghanistan appears in the latest issue British Army Review, a restricted military publication designed to provoke debate within the Army.

    Writing anonymously, the author reveals that the Taliban have dubbed British soldiers "donkeys" who move in a tactical "waddle" because they now carry an average weight of 110lbs worth of equipment into battle.

    The consequences of the strategy, he says, is that "our infantry find it almost impossible to close with the enemy because the bad guys are twice as mobile".

    The officer claims that by the end of a routine four hour patrol, soldiers struggle to make basic tactical judgements because they are physically and mentally exhausted.

    "We're getting to a point where we are losing as many men making mistakes because they are exhausted from carrying armour (and the things that go with it) than are saved by it," he warns.

    Britain's military's command structure in Afghanistan also comes in for criticism and is described as a "bloated over complex system that sucks the life out of operations" and where "decision and action get lost in Chinese whispers and Chinese parliaments that turn most of operational staff 'work' into operational staff waste".

    In Helmand, a quarter of the 9,500 British troops deployed are involved in management or management support roles in various headquarters, according to the report's author. In Kabul, the combined strength of the US and Nato headquarters amount to more than 4,000 personnel.

    The report is entitled "Donkeys Led by Lions", with combat troops likened to pack animals and headquarters staff to "fat, lazy" lions.

    The author states that while researching the article he discovered that in the early 1900s, New Zealand loggers limited mule and pony loads to 128lbs, a sixth of their body weight while working in temperatures of 25C.

    Even seaside donkeys, the author states, carry just over a quarter of their body weight and rarely work in temperatures above 30C. By contrast, British soldiers are expected to fight in temperatures of over 40C carrying 65 per cent of their body weight.

    As the threat facing British soldiers has changed so has the composition of body armour, which now consists of front, rear and side plates designed to protect soldiers from small arms fire and IED blasts but weighs around 40lbs.

    In addition to body armour, a typical soldier on patrol in Afghanistan will carry: a weapon (10 to 20lbs); radio, batteries electronic equipment (40lbs); water (10lbs); ammunition (20lbs); Javelin missile (25lbs). Soldiers will also be required to wear eye, groin, ear and knee protection as well as gloves and a helmet.

    The officer adds: "A straw poll of three multi-tour companies found only two platoons that had successfully closed with an ambushing enemy. Our unscientific poll might be showing exceptions but rumour control suggests that the lack of closure is common. Some soldiers only do firefights because they know manoeuvre is a waste of effort when they're carrying so much weight.

    "The result is that apart from a few big operations where we have used machines to encircle the enemy there are so few uninjured insurgents captured in contact that it's simply not worth recording."

    But some of the most stinging criticism was saved for the headquarters running the campaign.

    The author wrote: "Lions, contrary to Victorian opinion, aren't brave or noble; they are fat, lazy creatures that lie around all day licking themselves.

    "They get others to do the dirty work and they have a penchant for infanticide. We are not saying our commanders are fat, lazy child killers, far from it, but it has reached a point where their headquarters are."

    The larger that headquarters become the more the staff there force soldiers into wasteful activity which results in lots of people "who aren't doing anything about the enemy; they aren't even thinking about the enemy; they're thinking about how to make a pretty picture of how they think someone else ought to think about the enemy."

    The article also states that British headquarters deployed in Afghanistan now produced a terabyte of written orders and reports every month – equivalent to hundreds of thousands of documents.

    The report continues: "In one Afghan headquarters, it took a man nine days to read one day's worth of email exchanges – and he didn't have to open any attachments.

    "The further we get back from the patrol base the worse the problem becomes. By the time we get back to the UK there are more people managing the operation than are actually deployed."

    The article concludes by reminding readers of past conflicts and asking whether soldiers of a previous generation would have been able to march across the Falklands carrying "all the extra kit we have now?"

    The officer writes: "Consider what the logistical and tactical impact of that extra 45lbs for Burma, Dunkirk or Normandy. How would these operations have played out if it took weeks to plan minor operations.

    "If we don't work out now how we are going to lose that weight we will do the old trick of starting the next war by repeating the mistakes of this one."

    A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "The issue of weight carried by soldiers on operations is well recognised and work is constantly under way to reduce the amount carried by soldiers.

    "Since June 2010 a number of weight savings measures have reduced the weight carried by soldiers by up to 26lbs."
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-23-2011 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Text in quotes, not edited down as too difficult

  13. #173
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Jon:

    I have a question. It will sound smart alecky but it is serious and was brought mind with the parts of the story that talked about taking nine days to read emails and a terabyte a month.

    Do you think, all things considered, we might be better off without the computers, or at least some of the computers?
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Computers are the devil, in a combat environment, when we let them take over and supplant a lot of the basic fieldcraft and otherwise reliable technology we already possess.

    One example is the use of the various digital combat operations center components that we currently employ. As it gets to the higher echelons, reporting becomes nothing more than a blip on a screen and a line of text. When I was last in Iraq, and weather and technical problems put our COC down for a while, we could not perform even the most basic reporting to higher headquarters because no one monitored the radio nets that have for so long been bread and butter for combat reporting.

    I think that in every troops in contact situation, watch officers at the echelons above the battalion actively in the fight need to have a speak set by the watch officer's desk. He can fiddle with CPOF tracks and UAV feeds all he wants, but he needs to listen to the voice reporting that is happening, to give him the context he needs to understand what is going on on the ground. Anything less is really hollow stuff, and we suffer for it.

    As for the plethora of computer assets that sit in shelters, converted buildings, and SWA huts around Afghanistan and Iraq, easily 3/4 of them could be chucked. Get those people who seemingly have nothing to do but watch the movie of the night or latest episode of Burn Notice off the shared drive, off their ass and out walking the line, or even better yet, beyond the fenceline and on a patrol.

  15. #175
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Exclamation Jon, I totally agree with your post. However...

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I think that in every troops in contact situation, watch officers at the echelons above the battalion actively in the fight need to have a speak set by the watch officer's desk. He can fiddle with CPOF tracks and UAV feeds all he wants, but he needs to listen to the voice reporting that is happening, to give him the context he needs to understand what is going on on the ground. Anything less is really hollow stuff, and we suffer for it.
    I'd urge one minor point of caution on that. I strongly agree that it should be done, however, said Watch or Duty Officers / NCOs need to be constantly reminded that initial reports of contact almost always tend to be exaggerated. What was initially reported as 600 Insurgents with Artillery and 35 DShKas as well as air support turns out to be about 30 bods with a couple of RPMs and a pair of RPG launchers while a few buzzards circle overhead hoping for lunch.

    First reports always need to be given a few minutes or to settle down and get real (without any hassling by the folks in the TOC/ COC...). That flawed reporting pretty much goes away with a little experience and a newly arrived unit takes from one to three months to get settled down, unit and situation dependent and given our current personnel and rotation policies. Given a bit of recent experience the problem is less but it is always a possibility and the S2/S3 crowd needs to be aware of it.

  16. #176
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    Default Dead Command Nets?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    I think that in every troops in contact situation, watch officers at the echelons above the battalion actively in the fight need to have a speaker set by the watch officer's desk. He can fiddle with CPOF tracks and UAV feeds all he wants, but he needs to listen to the voice reporting that is happening, to give him the context he needs to understand what is going on on the ground. Anything less is really hollow stuff, and we suffer for it.
    That bothers me. I can't imagine command radio nets not being monitored. I was on a JRX at Eglin AFB in 1983 where a logistics TOC had a remote unit connected to an AN/VRC 46 radio mounted in an M151A1 jeep parked 100 feet away. In the JRX the 7th ID were the Blue forces and the Red ones were a brigade of the 82nd plus attached armor. The command net in the TOC was dead and I had to explain patiently to its commo MOS E7/SFC that the BA-30 batteries in the remote unit needed to be replaced ... that fixed the problem and presto the net came alive with traffic. We learn such things in the Field Artillery ...

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    By the way, that JRX at Eglin AFB in '83 turned into the invasion of Grenada. Those of us playing in the FTX war games at Eglin were the reinforcements to be deployed just in case the Cubans had gotten frisky. They didn't and we weren't.
    Last edited by Pete; 04-24-2011 at 01:49 AM.

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    Absolutely Ken, absolutely. I was think more along the lines of the watch officer having the opportunity to hear that folks on the ground are getting shot at, and yes, they need support right now. Higher headquarters cannot handle voice reporting anymore, not with the various formatted reports that have to be filled out and forwarded to everybody on a distribution list that requires daily scrubs just to keep updated.

    I learned long ago that the first report is usually wrong, and during my second deploy we took the initial contact report, and then gave the on scene commander thirty minutes to come up on the net and describe what happened. Until that mark, the fight was his. If he needed more time, all he (not a radio operator) needed to do was ask.

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Miles ahead of me...

    As usual...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ghanistan.html

    "We're getting to a point where we are losing as many men making mistakes because they are exhausted from carrying armour (and the things that go with it) than are saved by it," he warns.
    From the source document - The British Army Review Number 150 - the following:

    ...The real problem with soldier load is not leg and back injuries but the tactical impact. Our infantry find it almost impossible to close with the enemy because the bad guys are twice as mobile.

    ...Some of our soldiers only do firefights because they know manoeuvre is a waste of effort when they’re carrying so much weight. The result is that apart from a few big operations where we have used machines to encircle the enemy there are so few uninjured insurgents captured in contact that it’s simply not worth recording.

    ...We’re getting to a point where we are losing as many men making mistakes because they are exhausted from carrying armour (and the things that go with it) than are saved by it. The weight of protection and firepower also induces some unusual and undesirable combat behaviour.

    ...Spotting the soldier load problem is easy; doing something about it will be very hard. No commander will ever risk the false ire of the press, the llinformed judgment of coroners or the genuine grief of relatives by dumping body armour, firepower or gadgets. There aren’t many soldiers or marines who would voluntarily dump kit and risk their own lives for some vague idea about the collective good.

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