Size of the Platoon and Company

[RJ]

The big Marine Infantry Squads (13 x 3) = 39
Platoon Ldr, Platoon Sgt, Radioman x 3 = 9 = 126
Weapons platoon to reach the 180 figure is 54
personnel for MG sections and assorted items that
fly thru the air and go boom and a Plt. Ldr, Plt. Sgt and Radioman.

Ability to absorb casualties, cover more ground in defensive postions and in the assualt. Firepower volumne 1/3 higher than the 9 man US Army Squad.

Six and a half decades of proven combat power and effectivness.

This ground has been covered in the Squad thread. Especially the first four pages of that tome.

The conversation petered out because the ground had been plowed to dust.


I'm still looking forward to the 12 man Marine Squad critique based on a tour in Afganistan.

It makes the platoons only 3 men lighter and the 180 reduced to 171 at the standard Company level.

A mere pittance in power loss, but perhaps an efficency under fire drop without 9 stand alone Squad Leaders fighting their 3 - 4 man Fire Teams.

[tankersteve]

Unfortunately, I didn't see the specific details on the company size before, so I do appreciate that. And you did answer the question on the size of the company - big companies are doable. Since the Marine squad (as you pointed out unchanged in 6 1/2 decades) may be changed, this discussion is definitely not over. Sounds like even the USMC isn't completely satisfied or sees room for improvement?

However, while I understand that other armies have the squad leader also leading one of the fire teams (all of them perhaps smaller squads, i.e., 8 men), I see the Marine squad as much more optimal, especially with a focus on more decentralized operations. As the SL starts performing duties typically identified with a platoon commander (in a COIN environment), he will have less time to directly deal with the 3 men in his fireteam. Plus, with this big a squad, it definitely seems advantageous to have the SL free to look at a larger picture. I am not sure where the benefit is, other than reducing 27 junior Marines from each battalion structure.

This seems to be nickel and diming the manpower - be careful where this leads, as the US Army went this way several decades ago, and look at where we are now!

Question: Where are the FO/ANGLICO the company uses, or is the platoon commander/platoon sergeant and squad leaders expected to do all their own call for fires? Are they in the weapons platoon or attached from a supporting artillery unit, as the Army does? Corpsmen the same way or within the battalion? When scheming my company structure, without attachments such as a commo guy for the HQ and 5 medics and the forward observer element, the total size is 184, right in line with what the Marines are at now.

Thanks.

And Ken, not trying to insult your intelligence or experience , just wanted to break out the whole gamut of duties/missions that tend to get lost in the sauce by higher HQs.

Tankersteve

[Ken White]

And Ken, not trying to insult your intelligence or experience , just wanted to break out the whole gamut of duties/missions that tend to get lost in the sauce by higher HQs.

Thanks again for the effort, I learned some specifics, some new things I hadn't thought of and got some thoughts confirmed. Good laydown for many of us, I suspect. Done similar things, yes -- but in a different place and time with different gear and rules; every war is different and thinking there's nothing new is dangerous. Since I'm violently opposed to both violence and danger, learning is where it's at.

Ungrammtical but correct...

[jmm99]

Happened to run into this old (1984) MG article, which seemed interesting to me for the pros and cons raised - and the author, then CPT T X Hammes.

[RJ]

Thanks for the Redux - here we are 25 years further down the Squad debate role and the United States Marine Corps is still using the Big 13 man squad and considering a 1 man reduction to a 12 man squad.

Does anyone know exactly what the set up is on the expirmental 12 man squad that is being looked at?

Was the stand alone Squad Leader over 3 Fire Teams the casualty?

I doubt if Sgt. Stryker would approve.

"Sgt. Stryker says "lock and load" Says the first fireteam leader to the rest of the squad as their Peter Boat approaches the beach in the John Wayne epic "Iwo Jima"

Ken White may have been the model for John's role in that great film.

Semper Fi, KW!

[Ken White]

was more like Forrest Tucker's role in Sands. The perennial Corporal, I screwed off a lot unless I really had to do sumpn...

Semper Fi, yourself. Guns up...

P.S.

I'm with you; seen a lot of different organizations and the old K Series Marine Rifle Company worked as well as any and better than most. Great for training young NCOs, the Army squad with two fire teams doesn't do as well. We also agree on MG Platoons...

[Rifleman]

was more like Forrest Tucker's role in Sands. The perennial Corporal, I screwed off a lot unless I really had to do sumpn...

But you saw the light and was born again.....as a paratrooper NCO!

[Rifleman]

I believe the 12-man squad that was being considered consisted of two fire teams and a C2 team. I can't remember the proposed make up of the C2 team. Was it SL, FO, RTO, and Corpsman?

I believe the change was intended to make the squad more of a stand alone unit for LIC, COIN, etc. I don't know if the USMC is still considering the change.

That's the best I remember from the reading I've gone; but, likely, I've gotten some details wrong. Someone in the know chime in and correct me.

[COMMAR]

Thanks for the Redux - here we are 25 years further down the Squad debate role and the United States Marine Corps is still using the Big 13 man squad and considering a 1 man reduction to a 12 man squad.

Does anyone know exactly what the set up is on the expirmental 12 man squad that is being looked at?

Was the stand alone Squad Leader over 3 Fire Teams the casualty?

Semper Fi, KW!

No, no don't worry the lone SqLdr has not been KIA.

The shift was part of what was Distributed Ops & has now shifted to Enhanced Company Operations.

The Marine Infantry Platoon remains at 44, 43 Marines & 1 Corpsman.

3x 13 man Squad, + Radio Operator, Plt Guide, Plt Sgt, & Plt Cmdr.

What changes, is the ability to shift the Plt Structure to best exploit opportunities.

At that time one boot fr/ each squad will shift to the HQ section creating 2 Plt C2's.

C2-A: Plt Cmdr, RTO, Plt Gde, & 1 of the Rifleman.
C2-B: Plt Sgt, Corpsman, 2 other Rifleman.

3x 12man Squads: The Squad now becomes a 2 team Manuever element but the SqLdr technically doesn't join the 3rd team he still moves independently directing the actions of the 2 manuever tms.

The 3rd tm however form a C2 Cell: The Fire Team Ldr now becomes the Fires Coordination Chief, 1 of the Rifleman becomes the Squad Radio Operator, & the other Rifleman is the Combat Lifesaver.

There's even talk of bringing the Loose Rifleman in the C2 back as the Squad DM to provide overwatch.



This might really freak you out.

There's even talk of splitting the squad even further into 6 man elements to Operate like 6 man Sniper teams for tracking, disruption, & sabotage bringing back the Old "Hunter/Killer Teams" fr/ the Vietnam War.

[Kiwigrunt]

This might really freak you out.

Sure does. So if I get this right, 20 out of a total of 44 now form 5 seperate 4 man HQ elements within the platoon?!?! To lead 6 x 4 man fire teams.

[Rifleman]

This might really freak you out.

There's even talk of splitting the squad even further into 6 man elements to Operate like 6 man Sniper teams for tracking, disruption, & sabotage bringing back the Old "Hunter/Killer Teams" fr/ the Vietnam War.

Wilf,

Take heart bud. If true, someone's listening. Not exactly what you propose but getting closer. They didn't day, "Patrol Base Infantry" or, "Fire Team Group" but they're getting close to your concept.

A little bit of RLI influence in there too, maybe?