Size of the Platoon and Company

[tankersteve]

Unfortunately, I didn't see the specific details on the company size before, so I do appreciate that. And you did answer the question on the size of the company - big companies are doable. Since the Marine squad (as you pointed out unchanged in 6 1/2 decades) may be changed, this discussion is definitely not over. Sounds like even the USMC isn't completely satisfied or sees room for improvement?

However, while I understand that other armies have the squad leader also leading one of the fire teams (all of them perhaps smaller squads, i.e., 8 men), I see the Marine squad as much more optimal, especially with a focus on more decentralized operations. As the SL starts performing duties typically identified with a platoon commander (in a COIN environment), he will have less time to directly deal with the 3 men in his fireteam. Plus, with this big a squad, it definitely seems advantageous to have the SL free to look at a larger picture. I am not sure where the benefit is, other than reducing 27 junior Marines from each battalion structure.

This seems to be nickel and diming the manpower - be careful where this leads, as the US Army went this way several decades ago, and look at where we are now!

Question: Where are the FO/ANGLICO the company uses, or is the platoon commander/platoon sergeant and squad leaders expected to do all their own call for fires? Are they in the weapons platoon or attached from a supporting artillery unit, as the Army does? Corpsmen the same way or within the battalion? When scheming my company structure, without attachments such as a commo guy for the HQ and 5 medics and the forward observer element, the total size is 184, right in line with what the Marines are at now.

Thanks.

And Ken, not trying to insult your intelligence or experience , just wanted to break out the whole gamut of duties/missions that tend to get lost in the sauce by higher HQs.

Tankersteve

[Ken White]

And Ken, not trying to insult your intelligence or experience , just wanted to break out the whole gamut of duties/missions that tend to get lost in the sauce by higher HQs.

Thanks again for the effort, I learned some specifics, some new things I hadn't thought of and got some thoughts confirmed. Good laydown for many of us, I suspect. Done similar things, yes -- but in a different place and time with different gear and rules; every war is different and thinking there's nothing new is dangerous. Since I'm violently opposed to both violence and danger, learning is where it's at.

Ungrammtical but correct...

[jmm99]

Happened to run into this old (1984) MG article, which seemed interesting to me for the pros and cons raised - and the author, then CPT T X Hammes.

[RJ]

Thanks for the Redux - here we are 25 years further down the Squad debate role and the United States Marine Corps is still using the Big 13 man squad and considering a 1 man reduction to a 12 man squad.

Does anyone know exactly what the set up is on the expirmental 12 man squad that is being looked at?

Was the stand alone Squad Leader over 3 Fire Teams the casualty?

I doubt if Sgt. Stryker would approve.

"Sgt. Stryker says "lock and load" Says the first fireteam leader to the rest of the squad as their Peter Boat approaches the beach in the John Wayne epic "Iwo Jima"

Ken White may have been the model for John's role in that great film.

Semper Fi, KW!

[Ken White]

was more like Forrest Tucker's role in Sands. The perennial Corporal, I screwed off a lot unless I really had to do sumpn...

Semper Fi, yourself. Guns up...

P.S.

I'm with you; seen a lot of different organizations and the old K Series Marine Rifle Company worked as well as any and better than most. Great for training young NCOs, the Army squad with two fire teams doesn't do as well. We also agree on MG Platoons...

[Rifleman]

was more like Forrest Tucker's role in Sands. The perennial Corporal, I screwed off a lot unless I really had to do sumpn...

But you saw the light and was born again.....as a paratrooper NCO!

[RJ]

Tankersteve posted -

Question: Where are the FO/ANGLICO the company uses, or is the platoon commander/platoon sergeant and squad leaders expected to do all their own call for fires? Are they in the weapons platoon or attached from a supporting artillery unit, as the Army does? Corpsmen the same way or within the battalion? When scheming my company structure, without attachments such as a commo guy for the HQ and 5 medics and the forward observer element, the total size is 184, right in line with what the Marines are at now.

Back in the day FO's and Anglico teams were attached to the CO. HQ. Today, Squad leaders and even Fire Team leaders are trained to communicate with Artillery and FAC's. I have read about junior NCO's handling communications often enough that they could tell who the pilots were by their voices as well as their "handles" in the march up the Bagdad.

Rifleman,

The old ratio was one Corpsman for each platoon, with a Senior Corpsman atttached to the Company. 5 per company. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since Vietnam and a lot of communication gear has been introduced to the rank and file. Attaching a Corpsman to a specific Squad is how it is done. I don't think they would become a member of the squad T/O.

Tanker Steve,

One of the Marine Infantry NCO building blocks has always been the Squad Leader position. This is the first major step in developing Junior NCO to grow up to become Marine Gunnery Sargents. I don't think the ARMY has a corresponding rank that compares to Gunnery Sgt. They have the same pay grade, of course, but the responsibility and efficiency levels are much different.

Ken White posted -

"P.S.

I'm with you; seen a lot of different organizations and the old K Series Marine Rifle Company worked as well as any and better than most. Great for training young NCOs, the Army squad with two fire teams doesn't do as well. We also agree on MG Platoons... "

Thanks, Ken. I firmly believe the early responsibility for 12other Marines is the keystone of every senior Marine NCOs career. It teaches you the importance of discipline and how to think fast and outside the box when under great stress. And I believe the Big Marine Squad will remain a cornerstone in the Afghan War for applying power and absorbing punishment while coninuing the fight.

[Ken White]

But you saw the light and was born again.....as a paratrooper NCO!

I just grew up.

A teeny bit.

[Rifleman]

I believe the 12-man squad that was being considered consisted of two fire teams and a C2 team. I can't remember the proposed make up of the C2 team. Was it SL, FO, RTO, and Corpsman?

I believe the change was intended to make the squad more of a stand alone unit for LIC, COIN, etc. I don't know if the USMC is still considering the change.

That's the best I remember from the reading I've gone; but, likely, I've gotten some details wrong. Someone in the know chime in and correct me.

[COMMAR]

Thanks for the Redux - here we are 25 years further down the Squad debate role and the United States Marine Corps is still using the Big 13 man squad and considering a 1 man reduction to a 12 man squad.

Does anyone know exactly what the set up is on the expirmental 12 man squad that is being looked at?

Was the stand alone Squad Leader over 3 Fire Teams the casualty?

Semper Fi, KW!

No, no don't worry the lone SqLdr has not been KIA.

The shift was part of what was Distributed Ops & has now shifted to Enhanced Company Operations.

The Marine Infantry Platoon remains at 44, 43 Marines & 1 Corpsman.

3x 13 man Squad, + Radio Operator, Plt Guide, Plt Sgt, & Plt Cmdr.

What changes, is the ability to shift the Plt Structure to best exploit opportunities.

At that time one boot fr/ each squad will shift to the HQ section creating 2 Plt C2's.

C2-A: Plt Cmdr, RTO, Plt Gde, & 1 of the Rifleman.
C2-B: Plt Sgt, Corpsman, 2 other Rifleman.

3x 12man Squads: The Squad now becomes a 2 team Manuever element but the SqLdr technically doesn't join the 3rd team he still moves independently directing the actions of the 2 manuever tms.

The 3rd tm however form a C2 Cell: The Fire Team Ldr now becomes the Fires Coordination Chief, 1 of the Rifleman becomes the Squad Radio Operator, & the other Rifleman is the Combat Lifesaver.

There's even talk of bringing the Loose Rifleman in the C2 back as the Squad DM to provide overwatch.



This might really freak you out.

There's even talk of splitting the squad even further into 6 man elements to Operate like 6 man Sniper teams for tracking, disruption, & sabotage bringing back the Old "Hunter/Killer Teams" fr/ the Vietnam War.

[Kiwigrunt]

This might really freak you out.

Sure does. So if I get this right, 20 out of a total of 44 now form 5 seperate 4 man HQ elements within the platoon?!?! To lead 6 x 4 man fire teams.

[Rifleman]

This might really freak you out.

There's even talk of splitting the squad even further into 6 man elements to Operate like 6 man Sniper teams for tracking, disruption, & sabotage bringing back the Old "Hunter/Killer Teams" fr/ the Vietnam War.

Wilf,

Take heart bud. If true, someone's listening. Not exactly what you propose but getting closer. They didn't day, "Patrol Base Infantry" or, "Fire Team Group" but they're getting close to your concept.

A little bit of RLI influence in there too, maybe?

[RJ]

Commar posted - The shift was part of what was Distributed Ops & has now shifted to Enhanced Company Operations.

"The Marine Infantry Platoon remains at 44, 43 Marines & 1 Corpsman.

3x 13 man Squad, + Radio Operator, Plt Guide, Plt Sgt, & Plt Cmdr.

What changes, is the ability to shift the Plt Structure to best exploit opportunities.

At that time one boot fr/ each squad will shift to the HQ section creating 2 Plt C2's.

C2-A: Plt Cmdr, RTO, Plt Gde, & 1 of the Rifleman.
C2-B: Plt Sgt, Corpsman, 2 other Rifleman.

3x 12man Squads: The Squad now becomes a 2 team Manuever element but the SqLdr technically doesn't join the 3rd team he still moves independently directing the actions of the 2 manuever tms.

The 3rd tm however form a C2 Cell: The Fire Team Ldr now becomes the Fires Coordination Chief, 1 of the Rifleman becomes the Squad Radio Operator, & the other Rifleman is the Combat Lifesaver.

There's even talk of bringing the Loose Rifleman in the C2 back as the Squad DM to provide overwatch.

This might really freak you out.

There's even talk of splitting the squad even further into 6 man elements to Operate like 6 man Sniper teams for tracking, disruption, & sabotage bringing back the Old "Hunter/Killer Teams" fr/ the Vietnam War."

Commar - No freaking out is allowed in the Marine Infantry!

Actually your telling me, nothing has changed. We always had the ability to reconfigure the platoons for different situations.

Pulling a single rifleman from each Squad doesn't disrupt the three manuever elements (Fireteams) at all. They still function as 3 fireteams under the direction of the Squad leader. They retain 3 automatic weapons and 35 rifles including the squad leaders rifle. The Marine Big 3 FT Squad was designed to accomodate casualties expected during the Island Campaigns in the Pacific during the beach assualt phase.

Your "The 3rd tm however form a C2 Cell: The Fire Team Ldr now becomes the Fires Coordination Chief, 1 of the Rifleman becomes the Squad Radio Operator, & the other Rifleman is the Combat Lifesaver." seems to me to be whimsical and a big reduction in the force application 12 man squad can provide. Fires Coordination Chief (What is the Plt. Cmdr. going to do. Or the SL himself? )

Squad Radio Operator. I suspect todays Squad Leaders can already communicate with their fellow Squad Leaders should the need arise. (Shouting useta work for me. or sending a rifleman as a runner if electronics are jammed, and hand and arm signals worked in the line of sight mode very well)

The SL might have helmet or handheld comm gear that can specify Company, Paltoon or Squad nets in todays world.

Explain what a Combat Life Saver is????. We useta call them Corpsmen.

And while some think the (DM) Designated Marksman is a new deal, the Marine Rifle Squad Leader knew who his best shots were and utilized them for long range killing fire when the opportunity presented itself. The DM designation today lets other Marines know that the new guy who transfered in from another Regt. or Division was rated a superior shooter.

When you said the third team becomes 3rd C2 Cel?

Is that the short team from each Squad? The numbers don't work if the third team becomes C2-C The Squad has become your standard 9 man Meck and Lite Infantry Squad
not two bigger elements of 6 and 5 + the SL = 12.

C2-A: Plt Cmdr, RTO, Plt Gde, & 1 of the Rifleman.
C2-B: Plt Sgt, Corpsman, 2 other Rifleman.
C2-C: Fires Coordinator Chief, Squad Radio Operator, Combat Life Saver.

Does this mean that the Right Guide can't be the Fires
Coordinator? Or the Plootoon Sgt.

Seems to me that the message may have gotten garbled during the sorce translation.

Perhaps someone can clairfiy the juggling!

Especially this description of the squad becoming two 6 man elements, er, one 6 and one 5 men elements with an independent SL, should he not want to join one of the elements.

The Irish have a new whiskey on the shelves now. It comes from County Down. It is called "Feckin Irish Whiskey" - I kid you not! That bottle sells in PA for $23.95

I will venture to guess that someone has been tasting that particular brand because as described above the is fecked up.

Does the US Army have people in the infantry who are called Fires Coordinators, Squad Radio Operators and Combat Lifesavers?

If this has been a test and I tripped the winning lever -

I will accept a bottle of Powers Gold Lable Irish Whiskey.
It is two bucks cheaper than Feckin Irish Whiskey and it is much smoother. Dangerously smoother!

[William F. Owen]

Wilf,

Take heart bud. If true, someone's listening. Not exactly what you propose but getting closer. They didn't day, "Patrol Base Infantry" or, "Fire Team Group" but they're getting close to your concept.

A little bit of RLI influence in there too, maybe?

Eyh! As long as the thinking gets out there, I'm happy. I'm not so much interested in the detail as the thinking that gets put behind it.

What they'll end up with is an organisation that fits the culture, and that IS important, but it's not necessarily best practice.