Citizens vs. Soldiers: The Growing Cultural Divide

[Wana88]

Interesting article, titled "Duties That Are Best Shared" from The Washington Post By Matthew Bogdanos
(Sunday, March 1, 2009; A17)

"Send in the Marines" has been uttered by every president since Thomas Jefferson sent a detachment of leathernecks to the shores of Tripoli in 1801. These words are likely to be uttered in the next four years -- of special interest to me as a Marine who has served multiple combat tours in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Veteran status is no guarantor of a leader's successful use of the military, of course; nor is its absence necessarily a harbinger of misuse. But in the 1970s, 74 percent of Congress had prior military service. Today: 23 percent. Barack Obama, though clearly respectful of the military, has never served in the military and has only two veterans in his Cabinet -- the fewest since Herbert Hoover. By contrast, John Kennedy, decorated for heroism in World War II, had only two Cabinet members who were not veterans.
...
The solution is an educated citizenry that understands its soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines -- understands that we are you.

Matthew Bogdanos, the author of "Thieves of Baghdad," is a colonel in the U.S. Marine Corps Reserves and an assistant district attorney for New York City.

This thoughtful piece written by a Marine Colonel who has drunk deep at the well of liberty and the Constitution, highlights a disturbing -growing-- cultural divide: one group (the citizen-soldier)espousing the importance of "honor, sacrifice and country;" while the other -much larger segment- advocates immediate gratification, narcissistic self indulgence and political correctness (Soviet era lexicon) all in the name of "freedom." The latter group not forced to make any sacrifices as once famously advocated by JFK and Jefferson, and blinded by short sighted indulgences, doesn't recognize the grave peril we face. Our enemies watch in wonderment and rejoice: we are our own worst enemies thanks to a seemingly blind majority. Our most famous Citizen-Soldier and Founding Father George Washington must be turning in his grave.

[jmm99]

of the American People, but do not want to dispute that. I thought the Marine-lawyer made many good points (not the least of which is that the military is better educated than the general population).

These two points, however, I found very telling:

But if we limit the warrior ideal's physical courage to an isolated subculture of military, police and firefighters, focusing them solely on this virtue, we risk cultivating doers less tolerant of different lifestyles or ways of thinking. And if we limit aesthetic appreciation to the world of academics and economic elites, never encouraging them to roll up their own sleeves, we risk fostering gifted thinkers great on nuance but subject to paralysis by analysis.

Or worse. This artificial separation forces us to confront global terrorism with either the compassionate consensus of the whole-food collective or the indiscriminate anger of the lynch mob -- failures both. "War is an ugly thing," British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote about the American Civil War, "but not the ugliest of things: the decayed . . . feeling which thinks nothing worth war is worse." We must, instead, face terrorism's cult of death with hard steel, informed strategies and a rock-solid code of shared societal behavior to defeat those whose defining feature is the absence of honor.

Instead, we (civilians) were told to go shopping - a failure of leadership vis a vis the civilian population that still continues.

COL Bogdanos' overall theme that there must be better military-civilian communication is preaching to my choir (more than one of my posts have emphasized that).

[Schmedlap]

Instead, we (civilians) were told to go shopping - a failure of leadership vis a vis the civilian population that still continues.

I don't buy that. It was one of many things said, but far from the only thing. Americans were urged to put their talents to use in support of our fight. Some did. Some didn't. And some others did the opposite - seeking cheap political points rather than seeking to contribute something productive. They responded with slanders against the President, shameless anti-American propaganda, attempting to politicize the military, and criticizing every step of the effort, whether the criticism was legitimate or not and whether each step was proper or not. I no more blame the civilian leadership for the pathetic behavior of some of this country's citizens any more than I blame Allah for my Iraqi Army counterparts' lack of punctuality.

[jmm99]

from Schmedlap
And some others did the opposite - seeking cheap political points rather than seeking to contribute something productive. They responded with slanders against the President, shameless anti-American propaganda, attempting to politicize the military, and criticizing every step of the effort, whether the criticism was legitimate or not and whether each step was proper or not. I no more blame the civilian leadership for the pathetic behavior of some of this country's citizens any more than I blame Allah for my Iraqi Army counterparts' lack of punctuality.

What I am blaming the leadership today for is the same thing that I blamed the leadership for in Vietnam - the leadership's concept that you can have a serious long-term war while everyone at home goes on with life as though no war exists ("guns and butter" in my dads's words).

[ODB]

This gets to the heart of it. Who has been impacted by the war besides servicemembers and their families? As a society there have not been sacrifices as a whole. One of questions for years has been why over the years has the American society started to veiw soldiers as second class citizens?

Stephen King:

I don’t want to sound like an ad, a public service ad on TV, but the fact is if you can read, you can walk into a job later on. If you don’t, then you’ve got, the Army, Iraq, I don’t know, something like that. It’s, it’s not as bright. So, that’s my little commercial for that.

I have lost count the number of people who have said "I'm sorry that you have to go back to Iraq" when they find out I'm in the military. I usually respond with "I'm not. Why be sorry? I choose to do this." Most look shocked and can't believe it. It still amazes me to this day.

[Ken White]

...One of questions for years has been why over the years has the American society started to veiw soldiers as second class citizens? ...
I usually respond with "I'm not. Why be sorry? I choose to do this." Most look shocked and can't believe it. It still amazes me to this day...The only person I stay in touch with from school was the one who joined the Marines

You just made my point...

""The disconnect between the Armed Forces and 'society' has been there all my life and I doubt it will change.""

Only thing I'd note in your first sentence I quoted above is that you might say 'some' Americans in the society -- because that's what happens to be true. Most Americans don't view soldiers that way, just a select (in their own minds) few. Most of those from that crowd who got caught up in WW II were accepting but as they die off, their heirs have no experience and only know what they read in the paper. That was true before WW II and was again true by about 1975 or so as the WW II crowd faded from public view and the Baby Boomers took over; those folks were the Pepsi generation and were not into military stuff. That's okay. Really. They don't have to like me -- and I don't have to like them...

[Boot]

One of questions for years has been why over the years has the American society started to veiw soldiers as second class citizens?

ODB,
I have been told that I was no better than a welfare recipient on a few occasions while traveling by my fellow citizens. One particular person who was so sure of his own abilities ended up with a broken nose and Jack and coke all over him. He won the jerk of the year award from me. Usually though I keep my cool and tactfully in a academic manner explain to them what it is I do. Their view typically is that Govt. job=welfare. One guy didn't realize he had a grant from the Govt. until we discussed what he did, so I asked him if he were a welfare recipient.

Boot

[Ratzel]

What I am blaming the leadership today for is the same thing that I blamed the leadership for in Vietnam - the leadership's concept that you can have a serious long-term war while everyone at home goes on with life as though no war exists ("guns and butter" in my dads's words).

I think you're half right. The Vietnam era civilian leadership definitely didn't fight to win the war. Johnson didn't want to redirect resources from the so called "Great Society." I think the book "On Strategy" by Ltc. Summers covered this in detail.

However, as for the non-war fighting pubic, I think they were too involved in the war. Because the middle class and elite kids were not sent to war, they felt guilty. Because of this they were swept away by the anti-war movement. If all the kids had went, the guilt wouldn't have existed. The Red Diaper Babies on campus would have been beaten like dogs, and the ROTC would have never been burnt down.

The American people can't handle the realities of war. They should be insulated from it as much as possible. However, the men and women who do fight should be taken care of above anyone in this country. If there's one group of people who truly are "entitled" in this country, its the warfighters and their families. For the rest of the population its bread and circuses (or beer and football).

The only contribution that should be taken from the non-war fighting public is their taxes. You can't have "tax breaks" while we fight a war. Nothing is more annoying than hearing some "Conservative" on TV talking about how "we're in a fight for civilization" and then go on in the next sentence about "tax cuts." If we're really in a fight for "civilization" then I think maybe we can raise taxes? We should at least raise taxes on the top 2-5%. If the working and middle classes can fight America's wars, then I think the upper classes can pay for them?

Here's a summery.

The American people should stick to "Dancing with the Stars" and Happy Meals and think about war as little as possible. It really shouldn't be a problem that our civilian leadership never served, but they must never be involved in planning or carrying out combat operations (e.g., Kissinger in Vietnam). The working and middle classes will fight the wars, so the top 5% should pay for them.

[Ken White]

I think the book "On Strategy" by Ltc. Summers covered this in detail.

Summers got more wrong than he did right. His 'strategy' was for a war that didn't exist.

However, as for the non-war fighting pubic, I think they were too involved in the war. Because the middle class and elite kids were not sent to war, they felt guilty. Because of this they were swept away by the anti-war movement. If all the kids had went, the guilt wouldn't have existed. The Red Diaper Babies on campus would have been beaten like dogs, and the ROTC would have never been burnt down.

Having been around then, I know that's specious.

The American people can't handle the realities of war. They should be insulated from it as much as possible. However, the men and women who do fight should be taken care of above anyone in this country. If there's one group of people who truly are "entitled" in this country, its the warfighters and their families. For the rest of the population its bread and circuses (or beer and football).

This is the suggestion I say is completely wrong.

First, the American people handle war very well. If they did not we wouldn't have so many and they wouldn't last as long as they do. Insulating them from war is directly opposite of what should be done. The dipwad politicians try that in every war; the insulation stupidity and it always fails. I don't know about your warfighting experience but I've got over six years worth plus another 24 years of service and your comment that warfighters are the only people who are truly entitled in this country is flat wrong. In fact, in my book, it's insulting to anyone who has gone off and fought.

Every American citizen is as entitled as every other American citizen to opportunity to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as they see it. If you've been off fighting a war, you did it just so that could be the case and you have a greater obligation to insure that it remains true than did those who did not go.

The sentiment you express may sit well in another country but it is totally inappropriate in this one IMO.

The rest of your post doesn't merit much comment as it is a totally unworkable idea..

[Ken White]

What I am blaming the leadership today for is the same thing that I blamed the leadership for in Vietnam - the leadership's concept that you can have a serious long-term war while everyone at home goes on with life as though no war exists ("guns and butter" in my dads's words).

Guns and Butter, I mean.

Same thing happened during WW II -- was there rationing and were there shortages of some things, were all the men and a lot of women gone off to war somewhere? Sure but life was remarkably unchanged from 1939. Only after the war (with no more Depression) did most realize they'd been restricted a fair bit.

Korea was pure guns and butter, so was Viet Nam. Not much worse this time than those two -- but the troops got to l9ive better in Viet Nam than they had in Korea and today's live better than the VN era. Progress...

In none of those wars or this one did the leadership really know how long it would last and IMO anyone who tells you that they could've predicted even the approximate length of any of them at the start is either amazingly prescient or a liar. Sure, we all know now -- ain't hindsight wonderful? Anyway, I'm quite unsure what imposing stringent measures or even mild restrictions of any kind on the populace would accomplish

I think the problem is that the Armed Forces want to act like they're a part of mainstream America and that coupled with the fact that people on both sides of the aisle try to not disparage the troops leads all to want to think we're a big happy family with some members off doing things the rest would rather not do but that just isn't correct as a view. We should all be in this together sort of thing. That has never happened in this country in my 75 years nor in reading of history of earlier wars. People in the service and out express a wish that it were different. Why? What would we do to make it different? Make people give up things just do we could say we did? That's real smart...

The disconnect between the Armed Forces and 'society' has been there all my life and I doubt it will change. The Armed forces should acknowledge that and avoid building up an idea that those who serve are just like everyone else -- because they aren't. If they get out, they can be again -- but while you're in, you are not like other Americans. Anyone uncomfortable with that ought to find other employment. It's not a big deal but it isn't a normal life. Period. It is my belief that the Armed forces do themselves a disservice by trying to be like everyone else -- changing that would hurt retention. Slightly. That's okay, most of those who'd leave aren't that happy with what they're doing anyway. They get up to 17 years or so in and do not want to make any waves, they just want to coast and depart. There aren't that many of those, fortunately and the few who'd leave aren't much loss.

Most of the folks I served with, Marines and Army, had no particular problems with all that and most of us were just happy (or at least okay with the thought) that we were picking up the slack so that Cousin Jack or Uncle Bud didn't have to. All of us were glad to get back to the big PX and get a Milk Shake and a decent Hamburger. It was a shock to see the attitudes and relative comfort (everyone is chubby ...) -- but that usually wore off and one assimilated in a couple of months. There were a few that grumbled loudly -- but those were the kinds of folks that didn't even like themselves, much less anyone else.

It would be nice if more law and policy makers had some military experience but it wouldn't make much difference in the long run. I suppose it would be nice if Mr. and Mrs. America sacrificed more and were more empathetic to the real issues affecting troops committed to combat -- but I'm totally unsure what that would mean or why it might be construed to make any difference in anything that counted. Much less what they might do that would contribute anything.

I always looked it with a view that I was a professional, had a job that was sometimes onerous, sometimes dangerous, sometimes not fun but mostly was fun and I did not care what what the public did or, really, thought about it. I realize not everyone looked at it that way and I spent time telling the younger guys (including a very few that were drafted -- most of whom took it all better than their younger regular fellow Troopies) not to lose sleep over the fact that they were where they were and Joe and Mary Sixpack were where they were. That was the way it was -- nothing to fret about and we weren't going to change it. How would we change it if we could? What should be done?

I never got a good answer to those questions.

[ODB]

The only person I stay in touch with from school was the one who joined the Marines.......

[Schmedlap]

What I am blaming the leadership today for is the same thing that I blamed the leadership for in Vietnam - the leadership's concept that you can have a serious long-term war while everyone at home goes on with life as though no war exists ("guns and butter" in my dads's words).

I don't even buy that. Our economy has been large and dynamic enough that it could support the "guns and butter" approach (fighting a war and maintaining a relatively unchanged standard of living, in economic terms). But this type of war required other changes on the homefront - primarily those pertaining to security. The leadership did implement changes at home and those changes were met with outrage, resistance, and protest.

I think the civilian leaders expected that civilians would understand that removing one's shoes at the airport was just an inconvenience that would need to be tolerated, given the events of 9/11 and suspected plots afterwards. If one's international call from Las Vegas to cousin Ahmed in Lahore is listened in on, then they thought we could grin and bear it. If a suspected terrorist and/or al-Qaeda operative in Gitmo had his thermostat set to 66 instead of 68 and his Halal meal was served 5 minutes late, then they didn't think that people would get their panties in a twist. Instead, people complain about airport security as though they were being told to walk instead of fly. Foreign surveillance is cast as some Big Brother attempt by Dick Cheney to personally listen in on your social life. And handling detainees at Gitmo in a fashion probably more humane than any prisoners of war have ever been treated in human history is regarded as a war crime that destroys our moral fiber as a nation. They complained that this war was being fought by the underclass (a false accusation to begin with), but their solution was not to sign up and join the fight - instead they mocked the CinC, the military, and the war.

The most minor of inconveniences and slightest of intrusions have been met with outrage. Our civilian leaders asked people to rise to the occasion. Some did. For the others, only the slightest of inconveniences were foisted upon them and they rebelled. The war became an occasion for people who are normally content to simply be parasites to morph into carnivores. Pathetic.

[Bob's World]

It is probably fair to posit that we will continue to move deeper into a era where our nation is largely at peace, yet our military is largely engaged in dangerous duties on the edges of the "empire." Such is the soldier's lot.

Do not expect the American people to go about thinking all day every day that they are at war. They are not at war and don't think about what the military is doing in those terms. It is DoD that is pushing hard (against virtually universal resistance and rejection) for a concept of perpetual, irregular warfare to attempt to address this apparent disconnect between the military's activities and the populace's perception. I doubt it will ever catch on, and personally hope that it does not.

Our military will be engaged in conflicts, our nation will be at peace. Instead of agonizing over "why the civilians don't understand and respect what we are doing," DoD would be better served by instead working to better understand the Populace they serve and seeking to describe our activities on their behalf in language that puts it in their terms; not trying to force them to ours.

Perhaps the problem with our all volunteer force is not that the civilians don't understand the military, perhaps the problem is that the military does not understand the populace? I was always taught that if you and your boss don't see things the same way, it was incumbent on you to confrom to the boss, not the other way around.

Just something to consider.