SOCOM and the CIA

[Uboat509]

Interesting article here. I can't say that I like the idea personally. I don't see this ending well.

Special Forces soldiers and Central Intelligence Agency operatives could soon be moving seamlessly between the military and intelligence realms if Congress follows advice it received Tuesday.

The special operations community and the CIA each would benefit from a much closer integration of their personnel, Roger Carstens, a recently retired Special Forces lieutenant colonel who is a non-resident fellow at the Center for a New American Security, and Robert Martinage, senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, told a hearing of the House Armed Services Committee’s terrorism, unconventional threats and capabilities subcommittee.

Martinage, who authored an 82-page report titled “Special Operations Forces — Future Challenges and Opportunities” that was published in November, argued for “increased institutionalized cooperation between the CIA and SOCOM [i.e. U.S. Special Operations Command], including hybrid career paths, so people could go back and forth between the two.”

“Ideally, personnel should not only be able to move back and forth from CIA stations and SOF ground units, but also to compete for selected mid- and senior-level leadership positions in either organization,” Martinage said.

SFC W

[Ken White]

who left a Group to go to the Agency. Different jobs...

[ODB]

Any ODA's beating down the door to get an Agency guy on the team? IMO looks like another one of those survival tactics. HUMIT, well you guys can fill in the rest, will not go into details.

I got a thought, why not utilize SF as the Agency's Ground Branch?

I do believe I read/heard somewhere that McCain wanted to transform the 2 into some kind of hybrid organization, going back to the OSS days.

I will stay with my initial assessment, survival.

Lastly, why does everyone want someone else's piece of the pie? Everyone wants to be shooter nowadays.

[Ken White]

to violence....

[ODB]

others on here make reference to your wisdom through years alive, but will spare you any further remarks.

For anyone who has a lot of time on their hands the entire report can be found here LINK

And for those PowerPoint Rangers out there LINK

[Ken White]

Shooter oriented from the word go...

He advocate more SF oriented to the Arab World and the ME/South Asia. he also notes that it takes time to build SOF people -- one presumes he's given some though to the facts that by the time his reorganization is complete, it may no longer be needed and that his total focus on the Islamic issue -- which is not our only problem -- may lead us into not being ready elsewhere.

That's a shortsighted and wrong headed approach.

I did get a laugh out of this quote:

"Additionally, the 75th Ranger Regiment and 160th SOAR frequently operate under the control of JSOC."

[George L. Singleton]

As this discussion has gone on longer than I would have expected I guess I am going to have to file my claim for CIA equivlaent grade pay for the rank of First Lieutenanat I held during my tour of duty with the old US Embassy in Karachi...where I worked with...you might say on detail...the CIA Team Chief and his Deputy the last half of my 18 month tour of duty as the 1964/1965 India-Paksitan War with preamble... then conflict came on us...resulting in part of my work...the 6937th Evacuation Plan being used by mid to late 1965 when all hell broke loose impacting our base at Badabur, suburban Peshawar.

Let me see, GS-9 or GS-11 pay, with retroactive compound interest....just might help repay me the cost recently of putting our three now in their mid-20s children through two college degrees each!

[jmm99]

George brings up a practical point about lateral transfers and pecking order.

For example, at DoS Legal Advisor's Office, quite a bit of flexibility exists on lateral transfers:

Attorneys are paid according to the General Schedule for Federal employees. For recent law school graduates with less than 1 year of relevant legal experience, the standard appointment is at GS-11, step one. Candidates with at least one year of experience, such as judicial clerks, will be appointed at GS-12, step one. Non-government laterals are appointed at the grade level (up to GS-15) and step that they would have earned had they joined the Office directly from law school. On a case-by-case basis, we may be authorized to compensate a newly appointed attorney with “superior qualifications” at a higher step level. Attorneys at the GS-11 level may be appointed at up to step 10 in their salary grade. The possible step increase varies for the higher grades. Salary levels for laterals from other Federal agencies are based on their current grade and step.

This policy hasn't changed in 40 years - DoS LA was simply the best USG hire because it had to compete with the I Law firms.

If you were making a lateral move to LA from the "right place", you would take a $ hit, but not a hit in level of responsibility. In fact, LA probably would provide a higher level of responsibility than at the firm. Then, if later you made a lateral move back to the "right place", you would not be penalized for your stay at LA. In fact, time spent at LA in effect counted as time served in the firm - with no future promotion issues in the firm caused by that (in fact, it could be a plus).

So, while I am not necessarily a fan of what seems to be proposed, the issues of pecking order status, preservation of seniority and pay (probably the least issue in the short run) seem to loom large.

Is there a brave soul out there who can give us a chart comparing military grades with the GS grades ?

-------------------------------
For one man's view of how the CIA and SOF cultures co-operated - and clashed - in norther Iraq, Sam Faddis' book, Operation Hotel California, is interesting.

[Ken White]

Here are the substantive rank equivalents (scroll down to Paragraph 4):

LINK.

Basically, a GS 11 equates to a Captain, a GS 12 to a Major, a GS 13 to a LTC and a GS 14 or 15 to a COL, only in the SES to you get to FlagO equivalents. Note there can be and often are local variations due to position. I personally do not believe Civilians should rate Military personnel but they do and I had to rate a slew of LTC and even two COLs. No problems in spite of my reservations. Even got a Senior Rater profile on Captains and Majors...

For pay equivalents, Google the Military and Civil Service pay charts though they don't tell the whole story. You can pretty well figure pay comparability by the substantive rank. We're too material a society not to do it that way.

[jmm99]

Thanks for the link and its chart. Also helps on the reverse match-up between FS and GS grades.