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  1. #1
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Once again I'd caution -- do not over simplify

    Or even try to do so.

    Viet Nam wasn't that simple. Of course Karzai is using us -- anyone in the west who thinks he is our -- Generic western collective our -- friend is a fool. Afghanistan 20 years ago was also not that simple.

    I can't say you've simplified it too far though I do believe that in trying to understand things, many use the technique of trying to identify component bits, an effort that IMO generally leads to excessive fragmentation. Micro views do not solve or lead to solutions for macro problems. I offer the US Army's Tasks, condition and standards approach as an excellent example of how not to do it.

    Is the task at issue your definition of that task, the other guys definition or that of a third (or greater) party? Or are there three or more different tasks being worked by many people, some known and some unknown with respect to the same time, location and issue?

    Are the conditions you unilaterally impose universal or context dependent; if the latter, who or what determines the context -- you, the enemy, the weather, the terrain all of the preceding. Or does someone or something else determine the condition...

    I won't even discuss the vagaries of a standard -- suffice to say that Hamid Karzai in his role does not operate with the understanding that I would were I in that role, thus his standard -- and that of most Afghan males -- of treatment of females differs considerably from mine. Since he is nominally a leader of Afghans, his standard is probably more pragmatically correct than mine would be. That means, whether I like it or not, that in that regard, on that topic, he's a better man for that job than I would be.

    That's okay with me. He does not have to like or agree with me nor I with him for us to work together for mutual benefit. Either or both of us should back off if it's determined that the benefits are skewed or not mutual. We do not have to be friends. Probably could not be for many reasons. That's okay as well. It's okay because it has to be, that's reality.

    I have spent a fair amount of time trying to export US missionary zeal in various climes and terrains on three continents -- most of those times, the entire operation was fouled up partly due to said zeal overriding common sense, partly because we did not understand the major defining facets of the culture we were operating in, partly as a generic result of inadequate training and education precipitating strategic, operational and really dumb tactical errors -- and once we were there partly because people expended a lot of angst over the minutia of cultural differences that they were never going to really understand -- and did not need to...

    Occasionally, though it all worked -- and every time that was the case, it did so because of the right Commander, sheer professional competence of most involved and adequate as opposed to excessive and unnecessary cultural knowledge. Those successful efforts, by the way ran the full spectrum of combat from simple SFA to COIN to HIC.

    Adequate cultural knowledge is not simple but it is easy, just recall everything learned in Kindergarten and apply common sense, read a bit, ask sensible questions and learn and heed the big issues -- realizing that one cannot ever answer some questions and does not need to do so.

    Long way of answering your question; "With Wilf's valid insight and Goesh's suggestion, where do we go?"

    Can't say. People are too different to provide an answer to that question, though it can certainly be asked. There are probably almost as many answers as there are people and that should be acceptable. Ideally, anyway -- because that degree of complexity of the human condition is unlikely to change.

    To get to the root of this Thread --I believe it is futile to try to understand an enemy from a different culture; the more different, the more futile. You can learn his operating modes and define his TTP -- and you must do that. If it's assistance to another nation, you must learn the major cultural factors and must heed the local rules with local people. There is absolutely no need to try to get inside their heads and I believe that attempting to do so will only lead to great frustration and due to excessive simplification and / or inability to completely understand all the nuances of very complex human emotions and imperatives can actually cause harm.
    Last edited by Ken White; 04-18-2009 at 04:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Me either

    I'm no expert; I'm just trying to provoke conversation...

    Direction and azimuth as I look on the map I suppose....

    We've discussed this in private- people are people and you cannot control hearts and minds...

    As always, I'll take it to an extreme so everyone else can realize that the sky is not falling down...Lest we presume that our straights are more dire than our parents...


    If I had the answers, then we wouldn't have to run around in circles

    And BTW Ken, well said...Bottom line is that we will employ the policy that our civilian's master.

    v/r

    Mike
    Last edited by MikeF; 04-18-2009 at 04:58 AM.

  3. #3
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    As always, I'll take it to an extreme so everyone else can realize that the sky is not falling down...Lest we presume that our straights are more dire than our parents...
    I'm not sure that everyone else thinks that. In fact, I don't think they do. Nor am I at all sure what that has to do with Understanding the Enemy -- but then I'm old and slow...
    If I had the answers, then we wouldn't have to run around in circles
    I'm not running around in circles, nor do I think many are -- but then, I could've missed something. I do that a lot.

  4. #4
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Touche...

    And that's why I had to turn off my TV.

    Eight years after 9/11, I simply started questioning...I don't have any answers...I'll lead point- just tell me where you want to go.

    v/r

    Mike

  5. #5
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Nah, no touche -- just trying to say

    that we all do things in our own way and that I'm pretty sure that there's no way to gain the depth of understanding you appear to be seeking, though I certainly hope you succeed. I don't think I've done that very well -- proving yet again that one mans answers may miss another question...

    All I can tell you is that 68 years after 07/12/41 I have far more questions than answers. My defining moment precedes yours by a bit, my wife's younger than I am and hers was the Kennedy assassination. To both of us 9/11 was a minor incident but we understand it was defining for many -- including our daughter who missed earlier traumas. Each generation -- in each nation -- gets its own defining issues. Consider there are people who do not even today know what 9/11 even refers to. Life is complicated that way.

    Having acknowledged I have questions and few answers, I obviously am not one to tell anyone where to go -- but that does remind me of the old saw; "My get up and go has got up and went but I sure can grin when I recall where my get up got up and went."

    On that note, I can tell I have nothing worthwhile to contribute here. But then you probably already knew that.

  6. #6
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Nor do I...

    I just jest with you b/c it's fun and you have a lot of knowledge to share...with that said, others read what we say...

    I think Emerson sums it up best

    In truth, undoubtedly we have no questions to ask which are unanswerable. We must trust the perfection of the creation so far, as to believe that whatever curiosity the order of things has awakened in our minds, the order of things can satisfy. Every man’s condition is a solution in hieroglyphic to those inquiries he would put. He acts it as life, before he apprehends it as truth. In like manner, nature is already, in its forms and tendencies, describing its own design. Let us interrogate the great apparition that shines so peacefully around us. Let us inquire, to what end is nature?

  7. #7
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Talking C'mon, Mike -- Sheesh. The guy's middle name was Waldo...

    That's it -- You Left Coast folks can stay up a bit longer but us senile old east coast coots are off to the sack. Mo' later...

    Take care.

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