Understanding the Enemy

[Ken White]

All true -- I believe that translates as 'know and accept your limitations.'

[bluegreencody]

Is this where Sageman's suggestion to replace the "war of ideas" with the inspiration of new dreams and hopes for young Muslims comes in?
One of the questions spurred by Sageman I have always thought about is how we apply the lessons from our own experience with the Civil Rights movement to the current situation... I always thought it was an interesting point to make, but he is totally unclear as to what he means by this...
http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/062707Sageman.pdf.

I am especially interested to know how this concept for action can fit within William F. Owen's viewpoint...

If there is merit in understanding an enemy, it is in how to break his will and subvert his arguments, not understanding him, so as you can empathise with the SOB, and live happily ever after.

Until the enemy gives up the policies you find unacceptable, his physical defeat has got to be the primary purpose.

[jcustis]

We need to focus more on simply providing the promised bread and butter and peace, than preaching the benefits of democracy.

I have totally believed in this, down to my roots and everything that I stand for.

That is why Bush's proclamations of "Democracy for Iraq and victory for the American people" used to rub me so freaking raw.

Everytime we presume to know that the rest of the world wants democracy, and it is put forth in images, broadcasts, executive summaries, talking points, and sound bites, we flip some sort of switch in the minds of the exact folks we are trying to influence.

It's like that classic case of "yeah, you had me going for a little while, until you opened your mouth and started talking."

This thread just reminded me that I have not had the opportunity to rant against so many of the idiotic things that I think the previous administration did in the name of democracy. It is Bush's actions that make Obama's seem so strikingly different and unusual in terms of foreign policy. Should have been that course all along, methinks.

[MikeF]

that you side more with Wilf than Sageman...

Sageman was merely an academic taking a moment to diagnose the data that he had before him...Wilf is a soldier...He puts it all in context...

v/r

Mike

[bluegreencody]

I just want to know how these two points-of-view can be integrated. They certainly seem contradictory to me at first glance. It seems that a basic lesson of the Civil Rights movement was that sympathy and empathy were major components of change. I am trying to understand how this point of view would have advanced the Civil Rights movement:

I believe it is futile to try to understand an enemy from a different culture; the more different, the more futile... There is absolutely no need to try to get inside their heads and I believe that attempting to do so will only lead to great frustration and due to excessive simplification and / or inability to completely understand all the nuances of very complex human emotions and imperatives can actually cause harm.

[MikeF]

you'll have to discern for yourself what is truth...

[Ken White]

I just want to know how these two points-of-view can be integrated...

Just to be certain the quote from me you provided is taken in context, from that same post of mine there was this:

""most of those times, the entire operation was fouled up partly due to said zeal overriding common sense, partly because we did not understand the major defining facets of the culture we were operating in, partly as a generic result of inadequate training and education precipitating strategic, operational and really dumb tactical errors -- and once we were there partly because people expended a lot of angst over the minutia of cultural differences that they were never going to really understand -- and did not need to...
...
Adequate cultural knowledge is not simple but it is easy, just recall everything learned in Kindergarten and apply common sense, read a bit, ask sensible questions and learn and heed the big issues -- realizing that one cannot ever answer some questions and does not need to do so.""

Just to clarify, all those comments apply to conventional military forces in combat in an alien culture. Note I said conventional -- those comments do NOT apply to forces, military or otherwise, that seek to bond with alien cultures for various reasons. In other words, in the US context, my comment applies to combat units such as Infantry or other Battalions and Cavalry Squadrons reasonably correctly employed for the mission, they do not apply to Special Forces, Civil Affairs, PsyOps and the like.

Most importantly, there is absolutely no correlation of the point of view I expressed with the US Civil rights movement. None.

[CPT Foley]

Great essay on how we need to improve some of the terminology we use with the Muslim world.

IO Sphere, Fall 06: Choosing Words Carefully: Language to Help Fight Islamic Terrorism