Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Coin and counterdrug ops

  1. #1
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default Coin and counterdrug ops

    Brothers,
    I'm in the middle of a project. I'm writing a paper showing how COIN should be used as the model for CONUS Counterdrug Operations. I will post it for your review and comment. I did want to put this out early to see if you had any recommended reading in this regard. I have a bunch of general COIN stuff, so specifically I'm looking for 1) information on reintegation and amnesty 2) COIN and drug trafficking 3) Addressing corruption 4) COIN and long term economic development. You comments are appreciated.

  2. #2
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    12,496

    Default Start here?

    I can readily recall two threads that touch on this theme:

    http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...hlight=salinas

    http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...hlight=salinas

    Using the search function helps and a moderator has added the link on the RFI page:
    http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ead.php?t=6813
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 04-22-2009 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Adding links

  3. #3
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan6 View Post
    Brothers,
    I'm in the middle of a project. I'm writing a paper showing how COIN should be used as the model for CONUS Counterdrug Operations. I will post it for your review and comment. I did want to put this out early to see if you had any recommended reading in this regard. I have a bunch of general COIN stuff, so specifically I'm looking for 1) information on reintegation and amnesty 2) COIN and drug trafficking 3) Addressing corruption 4) COIN and long term economic development. You comments are appreciated.
    Spartan6, I am going to be down there (Daytona) in about 2 weeks. Want to set up a meet and I will tell you about SBW (Slapout Based Warfare) they will never know what hit them seriously I can bring some stuff that may interest you.

  4. #4
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Insurgency in the Hood: Understanding Insurgencies through Urban Gangs

    Here's a pretty good thesis from DA at NPS....

    Accession Number : ADA451328

    Title : Insurgency in the Hood: Understanding Insurgencies Through Urban Gangs

    Descriptive Note : Master's thesis

    Corporate Author : NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL MONTEREY CA

    Personal Author(s) : Evans, Edward R. ; Spies, James R.

    Handle / proxy Url : http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA451328 Check NTIS Availability...

    Report Date : JUN 2006

    Pagination or Media Count : 85

    Abstract : Past, current and future military endeavors will invariably involve conflict at the sub-state level. A recurring problem in the study of insurgent conflict is a lack of data that has the breadth, depth, and historical accuracy to provide insight as to why, at the individual level, people participate in insurgency. Accessibility to street gangs provides a comprehensive source of data not seen in insurgencies. Street gangs provide a "ground truth" to the interaction between the state and organized sub-state group in a competition for control. The individuals who fuel both sides of this competition for control are basing decisions to participate in insurgency on a framework founded in rational actor theory, but modified by their perspective of the world. Groups who wish to recruit individuals into their insurgency apply incentives and disincentives selectively to individuals to compel membership. As a group gains more members it can apply more incentives, increasing the rate or future recruitment and level of control over a community. A comprehensive and effective strategy cannot be developed to counter these insurgent forces without answering the fundamental questions behind individual participation first. This thesis examines insurgency from the individual level and proposes concepts that must accompany any attempt to combat rebel groups.

    Descriptors : *TACTICAL ANALYSIS, *INSURGENCY, CONTROL, MILITARY HISTORY, MILITARY FORCE LEVELS, URBAN AREAS, THESES, CONFLICT

    Subject Categories : UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE

    Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

    Search DTIC's Public STINET for similiar documents.

    Members of the public may purchase hardcopy documents from the National Technical Information Service.

    You'll need access to DTIC to read for free or pay on storming media.

    http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...fier=ADA451328

    v/r

    Mike

  5. #5
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default great stuff!

    Great stuff, thanks. I will submit the draft document for your comment, mockery, snide remarks and anything else you deem constructive or entertaining. "Never surrender"

  6. #6
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Spartan6, link to the SF paper I was talking about. Addresses some of the points you were asking questions about. Uses an older COIN format but has some good stuff in it.

    http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/show...ename=1815.pdf

  7. #7
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Something to consider...

    I started considering that gangs and drug wars were simple insurgencies- just different grievances or pursuit of profit.

    When you look at it objectively in that manner, it makes sense.

    At least to me.

    BUT, cops and soldiers are different. Anyone that has had to train Army and Cops knows that. Any soldier that has been arrested understands that.

    I don't know how to minimize the gap.

    v/r

    Mike

  8. #8
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    88

    Default Cops and Soldiers

    We're not that different. Patrolmen are akin to Infantry in attitudes and worldview.

  9. #9
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default Necessary Modification

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    I started considering that gangs and drug wars were simple insurgencies- just different grievances or pursuit of profit.

    When you look at it objectively in that manner, it makes sense.

    At least to me.

    BUT, cops and soldiers are different. Anyone that has had to train Army and Cops knows that. Any soldier that has been arrested understands that.

    I don't know how to minimize the gap.

    v/r

    Mike
    I think we're both tracking. There are similarities but there needs to be obvious modification. There are root causes that promote drug use and crime, but there is no desire on the part of the traffickers to create standing armies and overthrow the government. I'm not approaching this as a way to create a militarized police, but more of a way to analyze and develop a holistic, synchronized way to govern bringing multiple assets of the government to bear on the problem.

  10. #10
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default Columbia

    ALCON,
    I've heard the Columbians have a very successful amnesty and reintegration program for former FARC memebers. Does anyone have any information on this program? Thanks.
    "Mono Labe"

    John Dethlefs

  11. #11
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,098

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan6 View Post
    ALCON,
    I've heard the Columbians have a very successful amnesty and reintegration program for former FARC members. Does anyone have any information on this program? Thanks.
    Consolidating Disarmament: Lessons from Colombia’s Reintegration Program for Demobilized Paramilitaries

    Individual demobilization and reintegration process in Colombia: implementation, challenges and former combatants’ perspectives

    A new start, an open end. The reintegration of individual demobilized combatants in Colombia

    Demobilisation of female ex-combatants in Colombia

    Business and Reintegration: Cases, experiences and lessons

    These last three are all by Kimberly Theidon, a Harvard anthropologist, who's churned out some on the topic in the past few years (although she does repeat herself a bit):

    Transitional Subjects: The Disarmament, Demobilization and Reintegration of Former Combatants in Colombia

    Reconstructing Masculinities: The Disarmament, Demobilization, and Reintegration of Former Combatants in Colombia

    Transitional Justice in Times of Conflict: Colombia's Ley de Justica y Paz

    There's also Demobilization of Paramilitaries in Colombia: Transformation or Transition? in the June 2008 issue of Studies in Conflict and Terrorism - but full text is not available for linkage online.

    Finally, not specifically focused on FARC and Colombia, but if you haven't seen it before you may find it useful:

    Disarmament Demobilisation and Reintegration: A Practical Field and Classroom Guide

  12. #12
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default Thanks

    Thanks to everyone so far. I have a lot of reading to do. Time to fire up the coffee pot and go to Staff Ranger School. I'm sure I'll be back asking for more ideas or sources.
    "Mono Labe"

    John Dethlefs

  13. #13
    Council Member ODB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    278

    Default About to

    bite this bullet OCONUS. How in the hell does one keep up with what authorities are still in effect? Have been changed? etc....

    After having read through about 6 National Defense Authorization Acts Title 10, Subtitle C in some and Subtitle E in others, I think I would rather have a car battery attached to my testicles than have to read anymore of that bull*hit.....

    Additionally could use some help on the whole counter narco training development.
    ODB

    Exchange with an Iraqi soldier during FID:

    Why did you not clear your corner?

    Because we are on a base and it is secure.

  14. #14
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default Target's up! Part 1

    Gentlemen,
    For your review and comment. No worries I have thick skin. In the words of the best 1SG I ever had "I might take your advice...and I might not." I had to split it in two due to file size. Understand I'm limited to 16 pages. It could easily be 80.

    I would have preferred to do it in MS Word but couldn't make it work. Sorry.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    "Mono Labe"

    John Dethlefs

  15. #15
    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    In Barsoom, as a fact!
    Posts
    976

    Default

    For COIN and long term economic development I am affraid you will have to look a little out of the boxe.
    Counterdrugs ops are prone to generate economical disaster at producers' households level. If you restrein your paper to only security, you will face a wall on that particular subject.
    Reallity tend to show that one year you stop production, the next one, to recover, producers will double production. You need to get civilian agencies involved in that such as USAID.
    One of the tricks is to harrass producers while protecting those who stopped. But you need to make sure that those who stopped will be the financial winners at the end. Which with drug production is not that easy. Poppy production is much more lucrative that weet.
    So you almost end up in bullying producers to stop and they just can't as they need to feed their families.
    It's also the limit of COIN in mid/long term. Immediat security must warranty immediat+longterm incomes. Or other material benefits such as food, energy...
    But you may end up with a silly operation comparable to DDR operations.

  16. #16
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan6 View Post
    Gentlemen,
    For your review and comment. No worries I have thick skin. In the words of the best 1SG I ever had "I might take your advice...and I might not." I had to split it in two due to file size. Understand I'm limited to 16 pages. It could easily be 80.

    I would have preferred to do it in MS Word but couldn't make it work. Sorry.
    Bump

  17. #17
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    14

    Default

    I used to write a lot of stuff on CD before switching to COIN. I'm skeptical about comparing the two, but here are some other articles you should look at:

    National Guard Counterdrug Support Lessons I -- http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA262943

    National Guard Counterdrug Support Lessons II -- http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA262947

    There were a total of five editions of CD support lessons, but I can't find links for numbers three to five. A consolidated version of all five editions is available through the MIPH Library, but you have to register to access it. (Registration is free): http://www.preventionconnection.net/...esourceId=3118

    Also see "Can the Military's Effectiveness in the Drug Ware be Measured?" at: http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj14n2/cj14n2-5.pdf

    Finally, I don't have a link for a soft copy but if you have access to a good library with back issues of Military Review, see: Schnaubelt, Christopher. “Interagency Command & Control: Planning for Counterdrug Support,” Military Review 76 (September-October 1996), pp. 16-24.

  18. #18
    Council Member Spartan6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    14

    Default

    This addresses CONUS operations and a lot has changed in the last 15 years since these other documents were written. We have extensive qualitative and quantitative data that shows Counterdrug operations reduce the supply and demand for drugs CONUS. Drug use amongst youth has gone down in Florida every year for the last 7 years. I'm pretty much done looking at new sources. I'm just looking for comments on the paper. Thanks.
    Last edited by Spartan6; 08-18-2009 at 05:04 PM.
    "Mono Labe"

    John Dethlefs

  19. #19
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Feedback

    John, good start. I concur with many of your points, and I think there are many similarities with the military COIN operations and law enforcement counter-drug operations. After study some examples of the problems, I have the utmost respect for the tremendous challenges that local police, teachers, and elected officials face on a daily basis. With that, I'll try and provide some feedback that will hopefully assist your work.

    1. Examples v/s Case Studies. Throughout your paper, you provided many examples that illustrate or explain your thesis. One suggestion that may help further validate the point that you want to make is through the use of case studies. For example, you could compare and contrast the approaches used in Miami, Los Angeles, and New York. Explaining what worked and what didn't and how a COIN approach could assist solve or minimize the problem.

    2. Caution on using historical examples to validate. One common difficulty in trying to prove your thesis is choosing the right supporting data. It becomes easy to use examples that support what you want to say. One example in your paper was the Sunni Awakening. That approach worked in Anbar, Baghdad and various portions of Iraq; however, it was less successful in Diyala Province. Furthermore, there is no evidence that it could be successful in Afghanistan or Mexico. So, my advice would be to explain how and why it was effective in a specific place, but also show how it did not work in others. This approach will further strengthen your argument.

    On a side note, I had an interesting conversation with a retired Park Ranger that spent 30 years working with the National Park Service. He explained how they ran counter-drug operations in conjunction with the DEA, FBI, and local law enforcement agencies to limit illegal marijuana farms on federal land. I was impressed with the inter-agency cooperation, and I learned a bit more on how big this problem is and how many different groups are trying to tackle it.

    Hope this helps.

    Mike

  20. #20
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Finished your paper. I hope you get to do this somewhere...much would be learned!!!! The ASCOPE analysis format could really open some peoples eyes about what is really going on in their cities. Good Luck and keep us informed of any progress on your project. Should we call it Operation....Miami Nice

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •