The question...

[MikeF]

And this is my opinion. It may change.

I used to believe this but I have come to reconsider this of late. If we did create a "SOF" seat at the JCS then experience tells me that the command will be dominated by JSOC and that means SF will continue to be the red headed step children of the SOF community.

The issue is not about SOF/SF. I don't think y'all will ever get along, and I never understood why you're under one command. Personally, I thought it was kinda similar to when they did away with specialties for infantry (Bradley grunt = airborne grunt). Just weird.

IMO, y'all need a four-star seat at the table. That's the only way to work within bureaucracies (ricebowls, budgets, egos, etc)...On the big army level, y'all have not done that well since 9/11. ADM Olson wears too many hats. Is he the Chief of staff of SOF, the CoCom of SOF, or equivalent of FORSCOM? He can't do all three jobs, and I think that's hurt y'all a bit.

Fort Bragg is already way overcrowded and there are more than enough major headquarters there now.

True, but in some respects, it is the center of the universe. Seriously, well, you may be right on that one.

Selection is open to every qualified candidate.

That's just not a true statement particularly with O's. I know you're probably laughing right now thinking we have enough O's, but you are missing out on some GPF company commanders who excelled working in patrol bases and FID.

Plus, some of the enlisted that would make excellent SF's simply don't want to go to school after 3-4 deployments.

Does it matter? I dunno.

Would you be better off if you found a way to integrate them? Probably.

Will it happen? Probably not.

I've tried to look at these issues from a neutral standpoint.

v/r

Mike

[Uboat509]

IMO, y'all need a four-star seat at the table. That's the only way to work within bureaucracies (ricebowls, budgets, egos, etc)...On the big army level, y'all have not done that well since 9/11. ADM Olson wears too many hats. Is he the Chief of staff of SOF, the CoCom of SOF, or equivalent of FORSCOM? He can't do all three jobs, and I think that's hurt y'all a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing that SOF should have a seat at the table. I just don't want to see it overtaken by JSOC guys again. Given the current numbers, I don't see how it wouldn't be.

That's just not a true statement particularly with O's. I know you're probably laughing right now thinking we have enough O's, but you are missing out on some GPF company commanders who excelled working in patrol bases and FID.

O's do have a smaller window than we enlisted swine but they do have a window.

Plus, some of the enlisted that would make excellent SF's simply don't want to go to school after 3-4 deployments.

Does it matter? I dunno.

Would you be better off if you found a way to integrate them? Probably.

Will it happen? Probably not.

I've tried to look at these issues from a neutral standpoint.

v/r

Mike

SF is not just a cool hat and some more uniform flair, nor is it just a collection of good guys. It is a series of skill sets and a lot of institutional experience doing many of the things that GPF had to learn, more or less from scratch, but more than that it is a mind set. If you aren't ready to put in the time and training to be SF then you aren't ready to be SF.

SFC W

[jmm99]

from ODB
Laws are unclass, but there are some that others should never know that the military is capable of carrying out legally.

as provided by sec.167(j)(10) "Such other activities as may be specified by the President or the Secretary of Defense."

And your ideal image definitely appears to be "a more well rounded individual."

Cheers

Mike

[Ken White]

I'm sitting here chortling at the thought of USASOCOM, USASFCOM, JSOC and USSOCOM all being located at Bragg -- then when FORSCOM moves up there in 2011, the 7th SFG goes to Eglin (unless they win the fight to not do that...) and with XVIII Airplane Corpse and the Eighty-Deuce and a few earthling commands, it would be downright interesting...

'Course, if you had all those hindquarters there, Bragg would have a higher GO count than Afghanistan (barely...). and man, what a target; take all the hot responders out at one whack.

I'm also trying to picture Jim Lindsey (LINK) at a meeting in the Tank with his Cigar ...

Mike, you know someone once tried to tell me that the XVII Abn Corps was not commanded by the 82d. Silly guy or a heretic, one or t'other...

[MikeF]

Thanks for the replies...

I'm sitting here chortling at the thought of USASOCOM, USASFCOM, JSOC and USSOCOM all being located at Bragg -- then when FORSCOM moves up there in 2011, the 7th SFG goes to Eglin (unless they win the fight to not do that...) and with XVIII Airplane Corpse and the Eighty-Deuce and a few earthling commands, it would be downright interesting...

'Course, if you had all those hindquarters there, Bragg would have a higher GO count than Afghanistan (barely...). and man, what a target; take all the hot responders out at one whack.

I'm also trying to picture Jim Lindsey (LINK) at a meeting in the Tank with his Cigar ...

Mike, you know someone once tried to tell me that the XVII Abn Corps was not commanded by the 82d. Silly guy or a heretic, one or t'other...

I placed my initial comments to spark some emotion/discussion so we could possibly figure out how to better leverage our capabilities with the lessons learned in combat.


SFC W says

SF is not just a cool hat and some more uniform flair, nor is it just a collection of good guys. It is a series of skill sets and a lot of institutional experience doing many of the things that GPF had to learn, more or less from scratch, but more than that it is a mind set. If you aren't ready to put in the time and training to be SF then you aren't ready to be SF.

He is right. Every discussion that I have with an SF personnel reminds me of how intuitive small wars are to them. It is impressive. One analogy could be that SF's are Sun Tzu and everyone else is Clausewitz.

ODB brought forward a good suggestion- cross-fertilization on the staff level. I served as an LNO and worked in the JSOTF's J2,J3, and JOC. That "internship" was probably the best professional development that I had as a young captain.

MTF...

Mike

[Ken White]

The real question...

I placed my initial comments to spark some emotion/discussion so we could possibly figure out how to better leverage our capabilities with the lessons learned in combat.

Though I have to admit my warped sense of humor frequently obscures my messages...

Serious answers to your points; IMO, of course:

We can start by giving SOF a seat on the JCS. Then, I'd recommend them to move from Tampa to Fort Bragg.

I do not see any advantage to doing either. If you elect to have Congress pursue a Fifth (Sixth?) service and form USSOF, then the JCS idea make sense, other wise, they have adequate clout as a Unified Command with their own funding authority. If the perception is that they are not listened to on high, then I think that's as much a transient personality issue as anything.

Moving it is okay but I do believe Bragg is over crowded and has too many Hq already -- I'd even move some of those to different locations given the chance.

On the lower end, SF should consider allowing CF/GPF personnel with significant advisor time to slide into their ranks.

Your problem there is that Selection is a rite of passage. The comments of you and ODB re: staff interchange are right on target.

That's all common-sense to me until you throw in ricebowls, budgets, egos, and tabs...The simple things that get in the way of mission requirements .

True and having been on both sides of the GPF / SF fence, the Armor / Cav fence, the Airborne / Leg fence, the Light / heavy fence, the FID / UW vs. DA fence and the USMC / US Army fence plus watching the Yard Sign supporting one or another candidate for Prez last fall, I'm inclined to believe that Tribal loyalties and fences are a part of the human condition.

If that's correct, it seems to me that the best approach is not to try to tear apart tribal loyalties but to use them to leverage their strengths. On an allied note, it's been my observation that while excessive competition is harmful, a little competition is really beneficial and helps develop TTP that can cross fertilize all the tribes. We ought to encourage that...

While competition is beneficial, we do need to tear down a number of those fences. There are two major ways to do that, I think -- dumb everyone down to a not so special level...

Or we could smarten and toughen everyone up to even higher levels and realize that all those Tribes have strengths that can be mutually and beneficially employed.

Quality has a quantity all its own; we're supposed to be a Professional Armed force -- we sometimes do not act like one.

You raised some good points; now someone can tear my point apart.

[MikeF]

Though I have to admit my warped sense of humor frequently obscures my messages...

Serious answers to your points; IMO, of course:

I know, and my jokes are rather not so funny at times too.

The reason I suggested a move from Tampa/Bragg and a seat at the table of the JCS has nothing to do with SF.

Currently, the majority of our warfare is irregular. SF specializes in IW/UW so if 1 + 1 = 2, then they should be in charge. Unfortunately, too many other factors (ricebowls, money, ego, etc...) get in the way.

Currently, I believe that ADM Olsen is forced to wear too many hats as the USSOCOM commander. If he spends time in DC, then he can't spend time in Tampa. If he spends time in Tampa, then he can't spend time abroad...etc...

If he focuses on funding and training, then he does not focus on the current fight.

If USSOCOM is supposed to lead the GWOT or Long War, then there must be a organizational change at the top levels to divide up the neccessary tasks with the appropriate rank.

What we have been doing is called taming or satisfycing (seeking a 70% solution to deal with the 50m target in the hopes that that will be good enough). So far it has worked, but as the conflicts expand, we could come up short if we don't adjust.

v/r

Mike