despise the "stop Snitching" phenom with a passion!!! Grrrrrr
Understanding the history behind it does not justify it at all, period. The "stop Snitching" campaign does not just protect low level drug dealers, it protects murders, gang members and rapists. These are individuals and crimes that NEED to be caught if you want to live in a stable peaceful society.
Reed
Originally Posted by sapperfitz82
That's the thing. I don't think this has evolved at all. Just because an old creed has gotten a three-syllable slogan and a T-shirt doesn't make it any different than what went on in the past.Apparently it's evolving past the criminal element looking to get out of a charge or make a plea deal. It's evolved to anyone that witnessed a crime. Which I don't believe it's "rare". Most crimes have victims.
Hi
The most common summary of an incident from a shooting victim that I deal with is "I heard a shot and felt pain." Most of the victims end their cooperation there. It is not uncommon for a person to be shot in the genitils, knees, buttocks,or legs. Shootings to settle scores and humiliate.
The supposed "code of silence" among soldiers or cops is not the same thing.
As far as lesser crimes although the law lists the actions as a felony the State will rarely charge accordingly. The charge will become an included misdemeanor or a non prosecution/release. The crime decrease of the late 90's was a pause in the disaster. It is dangerous and time consuming to be an independent witness. Most of the victims and offenders of shootings are already convicted felons who should still be serving sentences. Parole was done away with by changing the name to supervised release. I have been involved in cases that were in court for years. I am paid for my time. The independent witness is not.
Rat Finks
I grew up in the 60's and we had a similar event. It was called being a "Rat Fink" below is a link to explain it.Yes I and my friends built the model.I think it is an overblown media story IMO.
tequila's comments about why and who practice the don't snitch philosophy are close to my experiences as an LE officer. Witness intimidation is the main reason the US Marshal service had to come up with the witness protection program.
There are COIN lessons to be learned about why people will or will not be a witness or tell you about an insurgent. Fear is a very strong motivator. If a person is in fear of retaliation and you cannot protect them you will probably not have a witness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_fink
I agree its old wine in a new bottle. Russian émigrés do not talk to law enforcement in Brighton Beach Brooklyn; maybe it has gotten better, but I bet the clearance rate on homicides is equal with “stop snitchin” neighborhoods.
South Boston used to have the highest concentration of white poverty in America. Southie was a predominately Irish Catholic neighborhood that had fierce pride and loyalty; everyone was an outsider, even Irish from other neighborhoods – nobody snitched. Southie was systematically strangled, poisoned, and raped by a monster named Whitey Bulger and his gang. But he and ‘the boys’ were heroes; the irony as it turns out was that Whitey was a snitch himself. I have talked to people from Southie that have become successful professionals, about Whitey; there biggest gripe against him was not that he was psychopath who terrorized the neighborhood, but that he was “a f@&king rat”.
This culture of silence towards outsiders is common. The Drug War just magnifies it. That the Stop Snitching has been commercialized is unfortunate; but it may bring opportunity. What if LE went the Capone angle and nailed some big name rappers on tax evasion? Are they willing to keep their street-cred or fortune? Could undercut this culture when these rappers themselves start snitching. Protecting someone from the neighborhood is honorable; protecting your accountant in Greenwich is just stupid.
If the laws seem unjust, poorly crafted, unevenly enforced, or too harshly enforced then the law will not have the support of the people. If the law does not have their support, then the law enforcement authorities will not get their cooperation.
The problem is not celebrities pushing a code of silence. That is a symptom. The problem is one of perception. When you have the pop culture and the politicians telling inner city residents that the laws target them (longer sentences for "black drugs" like crack versus "white drugs") and that the police are out to get them (driving while black, etc), then the people are going to have an adversarial relationship with the police, no matter what - even if the police are trying to prevent or investigate rapes and murders. You can even see a similar dynamic on our roadways - we all know that speed can contribute to accidents and make them more deadly, but many, if not most people, deliberately violate speed limits and help others to avoid getting pulled over and ticketed. Why? Partly because they think the speed limits are too low, partly because they think the enforcement is too harsh, partly because they are special and laws shouldn't apply to them, partly because they don't see anything wrong with breaking the law, and thus they see nothing wrong with helping others to avoid detection.
Until people stop pushing the narratives that blacks are perpetual victims of a racist nation, the "code of silence" problem will remain. Hurricane Katrina was probably the most shameful and damaging instance of this narrative being pushed in quite a while. Government incompetence was portrayed as overt racism and turned into a political issue. Being a Katrina "victim" is now yet another badge of honor that can be worn. It is sad that there are political incentives for making black Americans to the US what Palestinians are to Israel.
One Bright Spot
When rapper T.I. was arrested on federal weapons charges part of his release was doing 1500 hours of community service. He did the vast majority of it by going to a lot of high schools and middle schools in the Atlanta area. He gave student body presentations where he said, in effect, the gangsta lifestyle was BS and they're selling you a product. He essentially called BS on the entire way of life. He has tremendous credibility with that age group and the reception was astounding. Better than 10,000 hours of public service announcements. Others I've talked to in the know say the gangsta rap/lifestyle has become a caricature of itself and is in the process of playing itself out. Also been a very small but perceptible change since BHO became POTUS.
On the other hand, Bill Cosby tried a few years ago to do what T.I. did and pulled back a bloody stump for his trouble. He acquired a lifetime's worth of hatred and erased all prior accomplishments by giving one speech.
Schmedlap: Amen!
Speaking of rappers....tequila this is for you....thought it might make a great song you could sing to the insurgents at night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVuI-0_LwXY
Last edited by slapout9; 05-21-2009 at 09:50 PM. Reason: fix stuff
However, you clearly need to split up your treatment of the irreconcilables (murders, gang members, rapists) from the reconcilables (low level drug dealers). Just despising "stop snitching" isn't a strategy.
Stop Snitchin on Hizbollah...
Seems like there are some strong parallels between connecting with communities in our own cities, breaking down the barriers to law enforcement, and effective counter-insurgency practice. Is the code of silence on the streets of America much different from trying to get Iraqis to point out the insurgents in their midst?
The discussion made me think of this profile of Carmelo Anthony of the Denver Nuggets.
"For months after last winter's PR storm, Anthony's handlers wouldn't grant interviews with him unless a reporter agreed not to ask about Stop Snitching. No more. Anthony never felt he'd done anything wrong, nothing big at least. Now, he wants to talk about where he comes from, the hand he was dealt.
In the Pepsi Center, he sets down a PDA he has been tapping away at and leans back in his chair. "Drug dealers funded our programs," he says. "Drug dealers bought our uniforms." They were just about the only guys in the hood with the cash to outfit a team. They did it for three years beginning in late elementary school, he says, and never asked Anthony for anything in return, like carrying product. "They just wanted to see you do good."
When the cops took over the nearby rec center and nailed a Police Athletic League sign on the front, Anthony and his friends boycotted. The goal may have been to clear out the dealers, but to him it felt like one more act of harassment, another form of bullying by some Charm City cop who doesn't especially trust loitering young black males. More than once, Anthony says, men in blue left him black-and-blue. "Nothing major," he says. "They'd just choke me, drag me around." It was enough to seal the kind of resentment that could one day lead to five minutes of face time on a fire-starter DVD."
Not condoning it. But there are similarities between the impact of guys kicking down the wrong Iraqi door in the middle of the night looking for a guy who builds IEDs probably and grabbing the wrong guys on the street of an American city.
An excellent book on the admittedly unique street dynamics of a Chicago housing project, which are very different from what I know in Brooklyn, NY, but gives a good insight on how police, local leaders, and drug dealers can interact in real life:
Gang Leader for a Day
Absolutely not, and I've argued the same long before I knew who Kilcullen was. If you cannot protect the populace, you already have one strike against you.Is the code of silence on the streets of America much different from trying to get Iraqis to point out the insurgents in their midst?
The only difference that I see is that in Iraq it is political first, reinforced by culture, whereas in America it is cultural first, reinforced by politics.
The silence on the streets in America is due more to a cultural phenomenon whereby part of the black identity - to live the true black experience* - is to identify as a victim who struggles against an unjust society. Struggling against that society is part of the identity and this behavior is fueled and exploited by political interests. The inner cities are not exclusively black, but all inner city culture seems to be heavily influenced by cultural norms that most would associate with "blackness."
In Iraq it is political first. A power struggle is going on in the country and so long as there is suspicion that the foreign power is not an honest broker then the side who feels unfairly treated or threatened will choose to be uncooperative, passively or aggressively. Culture reinforces this political motivation because it is a norm to oppose the outsider.
* - this issue arose in the Presidential campaign; the issue over whether candidate Obama was "black enough" was not simply due to having a white mother, but due to the fact that he had not endured poverty or lack of opportunity - he was the son of a Harvard alumnus and enjoyed the advantages of white relatives
Last edited by Schmedlap; 05-27-2009 at 12:11 PM.
First, I'd say that seems like an awful big projection both suggesting that blacks are a monolithic culture and that all blacks self-identify as victims. I'd say that the situation is considerably more complex than that a cultural challenge. I think both are there, but I think the tension between the police and the community is not solely driven from black victimhood. There is a history of violence which is racially imbalanced, if not motivated, in some departments. But a youngster who sees more benefit to their community from the dealers than the cops is likely to grow up with a certain bias. I'd say culture and politics each play a role, but I would not slap them into a real stringent hierarchy.
Secondly, here's an interesting story. One of the guys from the Stop Snitchin video who ended up an informant, who was 'misdirected' by US Marshals. Suffice it to say there's no evidence the Marshals did this on purpose, but it is a reminder that even unintentional missteps can create huge perception issues. Imagine you're thinking about testifying for the Feds, but then you're reading how you might get put in the same cell as those your testifying against.
I was hoping the Obama example would clarify - I was not attempting to suggest that blacks are a monolithic culture. Rather, there is an identity being pushed by segments of the pop culture, academia, and political activists to stress that every racial group is somehow a victim of an unjust nation - probably due to the intentional malice of white men. For the blacks, that narrative is that we just can't get past our old slave-holding and Jim Crow ways. The debate within the Ebony/Jet types of forums was evidence, in my opinion, that a lot of people really bought into that narrative. There was geniune spirited debate over whether a man who had not endured poverty or oppression was truly black.
Just to be clear, for those who buy into the narrative pushed by politicians and cashed in on by the pop culture, there is a sense of identity in victimhood. I do not mean to suggest that blacks are a monolithic culture or that all blacks self-identify as victims. It just happens to be a narrative that resonates in the inner cities because it makes for a good explanation for their dire circumstances, rather than the Bill Cosby "it's your own damn fault" message of "get a job, get married, and then have kids." In regard to tension with police and the code of silence, I wrote "due more to a cultural phenomenon" not solely due to a cultural phenomenon. I wouldn't want to let self-serving politicians (redundant?) off the hook that easy.
Federal prisoners use snitching for personal gain
Caught this via elsewhere. It is an USA Today article two weeks ago and the sub-titles say enough:Link:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-sale/1762013/How snitches pay for freedom; Court records show that federal inmates in Atlanta tried to buy information about other criminals to win early freedom. (Shortly after)....At least 48,895 federal convicts — one of every eight — had their prison sentences reduced in exchange for helping government investigators, probe shows.
The best bit - for an outsider - is the final chart 'Who Cooperates Most'.
davidbfpo
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