Winning hearts and minds

[MikeF]

A continuiation of this thread.....

We take winning the hearts and minds as dogma- simple truth to theory, not to be contested with practice.

Can anyone provide an example of a thriving modern-day nation-state influenced by western intervention...i.e. western intervention won the hearts and minds of the local populace?

Modern day Germany and Japan do not count as they were had democracy/capatilism forced on them through occupation. We proclaim NOT to enforce an empire.....

I find it funny that our own conservatist are so anti-government, but they believe that we have the wisdom to intervene in others' affairs. G. Washington warned us against this...

v/r

Mike

[Tom Odom]

Mike

Winning hearts and minds is a slogan and nothing more to address the non-lethal aspects of COIN, IW or whatever we are calling it at the time. When used in the context of a conflict, it is never applied in isolation. The lethal is always present.

As for the hearts and minds, the reality is like the two guys running from the same bear. One says to the other, "I don't have to out run him. Just you." It is not a popularity context; it is an acceptance of legitimacy issue for the government versus the insurgent.

Are you positing a thriving modern state as the target of a western intervention or the result of such an intervention?

Tom

[MikeF]

Tom,

I wish that I had a position or an answer...As far as current policies go, I'm stuck in the middle. I'm sorry to add that most of our theories will simply play out over time.

My fear is that the "hearts and minds" is over-simplified for the average solder. In this forum, we may call it a slogan, but is that how it is related to the soldier on the ground?


v/r

Mike

[IntelTrooper]

Winning hearts and minds is a slogan and nothing more to address the non-lethal aspects of COIN, IW or whatever we are calling it at the time.

Like most slogans, repetition causes some less informed or less perceptive folks to take the words as representing a literal truth rather than a much more complex, abstract concept (which itself may not even exist in reality). "Conservatists" aren't the only ones susceptible to such errors...

[Tom Odom]

Tom,

my fear is that the "hearts and minds" is over-simplified for the average solder. In this forum, we may call it a slogan, but is that how it is related to the soldier on the ground?


v/r

Mike

Mike

Perhaps, I am not so sure. As far as I can recall, we never used that particular phrase in training units at JRTC; the scenarios offered were much more complex than that. As for here, media use it as a simplistic capture of a complex subject--makes it easier to dismiss. Down at the manuever companies, the same applies. They fully understand the complexity of the fight. The critical question I believe is do our host country partners understand the same. Most I believe do, some more than others.

Best
Tom

[MikeF]

Mike

The critical question I believe is do our host country partners understand the same. Most I believe do, some more than others.

Best
Tom

Tom, that is why I started this thread. We are hoping that our current partners share the same beliefs, values, and norms as we do.

Hope is not a method.

v/r

Mike

[Spud]

'Hearts and minds' is one of those expressions that when used by my seniors I cringe. It is nothing more than media grab that has become popularised over time.

Matt Armstrong has several ongoing threads about it over at Mountainrunner and I'm pretty much on side with his argument that we (the military) don't do 'hearts and minds' ... we influence 'minds and wills'

There's a significant difference. Firstly it acknowledges that not everyone (and in current ops probably the majority) aren't going to like us no matter what we do so therefore the hearts bit is a falsehood. Secondly it acknowledges that the influence activities we're undertaking are for a purpose in line with our mission ... we're not just doing good for good's sake.

At the end of the day we should be trying to make the population hate the insurgent more than they hate us not the touchy feely opposite which is make them love us more than they love the insurgent.

[Bob's World]

A continuiation of this thread.....

We take winning the hearts and minds as dogma- simple truth to theory, not to be contested with practice.

Can anyone provide an example of a thriving modern-day nation-state influenced by western intervention...i.e. western intervention won the hearts and minds of the local populace?

Modern day Germany and Japan do not count as they were had democracy/capatilism forced on them through occupation. We proclaim NOT to enforce an empire.....

I find it funny that our own conservatist are so anti-government, but they believe that we have the wisdom to intervene in others' affairs. G. Washington warned us against this...

v/r

Mike

Just to clarify one point here though; while I am not sure what our position was with the Germans, it was probably similar or better to the one we took with the Japanense. At the WWII Museum in New Orleans they have posted on the wall the terms of surrender that we had with this most hated foe, who we had dehumanized for years of bloddy conflict, who we had nuked twice, who had an emperor who they believed was a deity:

"That the Japanese people would have the right of Self Determination"


I love that fact. Prior to 60 years of implementing global control policies on this side of the Iron Curtain in order to support a strategy of containment of the Soviets on their side of the same, we did not believe that we had the right to dictate terms of governance of others, regardless of how we felt about them. After 60 years of such policy we see it as a requirement to do so.

So once again, I state: Its time to retire the Cold Warriors and their policies along with the Cold War; because to hang onto the former without the latter serves only to creat growing friction with our neighbors and to reduce our national credibility.

[Valin]

A continuiation of this thread.....

We take winning the hearts and minds as dogma- simple truth to theory, not to be contested with practice.

Can anyone provide an example of a thriving modern-day nation-state influenced by western intervention...i.e. western intervention won the hearts and minds of the local populace?


Mike

I guess I'd have to ask you to define "thriving".
That said, ROK, Taiwan, Indonesia.

[Valin]

'Hearts and minds' is one of those expressions that when used by my seniors I cringe. It is nothing more than media grab that has become popularised over time.

Matt Armstrong has several ongoing threads about it over at Mountainrunner and I'm pretty much on side with his argument that we (the military) don't do 'hearts and minds' ... we influence 'minds and wills'

There's a significant difference. Firstly it acknowledges that not everyone (and in current ops probably the majority) aren't going to like us no matter what we do so therefore the hearts bit is a falsehood. Secondly it acknowledges that the influence activities we're undertaking are for a purpose in line with our mission ... we're not just doing good for good's sake.

At the end of the day we should be trying to make the population hate the insurgent more than they hate us not the touchy feely opposite which is make them love us more than they love the insurgent.

Absolutly correct. One major advantage we (the West) have is, while many in the Islamic/Arab world may not like the West and what is being exported into their countries/cultures neither do they want to live under an 11th century way of life.
just one mans opinion, freely given and worth almost that much

[Mark O'Neill]

used by people with no understanding of the practice of COIN warfare who wish to convey to people who know even less than they do about the subject that they are subject matter experts.

Galula suggested in his introduction to Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and practice that plenty of people offer slogans, the difficulty comes in operationalising them.

I am increasingly convinced that the only people who can use the term 'hearts and minds' without any sense of irony or embarassment are 6pm news anchors, undergraduates attempting the 'explain COIN in 2,000 words or less' essay and charlatans.

Cheers

Mark

[Dayuhan]

A continuiation of this thread.....
Can anyone provide an example of a thriving modern-day nation-state influenced by western intervention...i.e. western intervention won the hearts and minds of the local populace?

I suspect that the South Koreans are not altogether unhappy about the outcome of western intervention. Some folks in Kuwait probably feel the same way. Neither, of course, had much to do with "winning hearts and minds" as the concept is generally construed. The South Koreans and Kuwaitis didn't approve of intervention because the intervening force was very very nice, they approved because the intervening force fought against people they saw as invaders. In other circumstances it's a bit more complicated.

I don't much like the term "winning hearts and minds"; it's melodramatic and not very functional. On a practical level it certainly makes sense to avoid actions that are likely to inspire hatred and a desire for revenge, especially when there's little to be gained from those actions anyway. It also makes sense to take some positive actions that make you seem a little more human and a little harder to hate: drilling a well, building a bridge, or passing out medicine may not get a population to love you, but it can make it a little harder for the insurgent to portray you as a rapacious invader.

It's important to recognize that communities in these situations may be a good deal better informed and a good deal more sophisticated than they initially seem. Mud huts and bare feet don't mean people are ignorant or unaware. If a COIN force is deployed in support of a government that is locally perceived as being against the interests of the community/clan/ethnic group etc, "hearts and minds" actions aren't going to accomplish a great deal: the COIN force might make a positive impression but that impression may not be extended to the government the COIN force is defending.

[goesh]

"....growing friction with our neighbors and to reduce our national credibility. "
(Bob's World)
This credibility issue has been bantered about for many years and I truly believe it is static, always there, unchanged. I recall as a kid VP Nixon on a trip down to S. America and the locals surrounded his car and started stoning it and he barely escaped. So from Nixon to the mass protests of the 60s to human shields of recent times and with a litany of bad press and condemnation in a constant flow from many quarters coming our way, I am finally convinced this notion of US Credibility is none other than a case of the have-nots being jealous of the haves.

[Bob's World]

"....growing friction with our neighbors and to reduce our national credibility. "
(Bob's World)
This credibility issue has been bantered about for many years and I truly believe it is static, always there, unchanged. I recall as a kid VP Nixon on a trip down to S. America and the locals surrounded his car and started stoning it and he barely escaped. So from Nixon to the mass protests of the 60s to human shields of recent times and with a litany of bad press and condemnation in a constant flow from many quarters coming our way, I am finally convinced this notion of US Credibility is none other than a case of the have-nots being jealous of the haves.

Throwing stones at the President's car in their land is one thing;

Flying our airplanes into our buildings killing our citizens in our land is quite another.

An escalation that belies any assessment of "static"

oh yeah...and if I hear one more person claim that "they hate us because we are beautiful" I think my head will explode. (probably to much cheering if I do that on a live feed for the SWJ community!)

[Mark O'Neill]

oh yeah...and if I hear one more person claim that "they hate us because we are beautiful"

That I have ever heard any of my countrymen (or brits for that matter) say!

Is that a real enemy perception or wishful thinking???

Cheers,

Mark

[goesh]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31918229...ideastn_africa

"168 feared killed in Iran passenger plane crash"

.........

Tehran blames the maintenance woes of its airlines in part on U.S. sanctions that prevent Iran from getting spare parts for some planes. "

How many thousands of these 'hits' have come our way? I stand by my assertion that "US credibility" is static, despite your excellant point of 9/11, Sir.

[Ken White]

we were beautiful...

Rich, selfish, ugly, mean on occasion over the last 222 years? Absolutely!

[Valin]

we were beautiful...

Rich, selfish, ugly, mean on occasion over the last 222 years? Absolutely!

From "The Wind and The Lion"

Theodore Roosevelt: The American grizzly is a symbol of the American character: strength, intelligence, ferocity. Maybe a little blind and reckless at times... but courageous beyond all doubt. And one other trait that goes with all previous.

2nd Reporter: And that, Mr. President?

Theodore Roosevelt: Loneliness. The American grizzly lives out his life alone. Indomitable, unconquered - but always alone. He has no real allies, only enemies, but none of them as great as he.

2nd Reporter: And you feel this might be an American trait?

Theodore Roosevelt: Certainly. The world will never love us. They respect us - they might even grow to fear us. But they will never love us, for we have too much audacity! And, we're a bit blind and reckless at times too.

[Ken White]

Your last quoted paragraph, spake by Brian Keith in that mostly fictional movie, were true long before they were written in the 1970s and are still true today.

Pity more Americans do not understand that. Be really helpful if more in Congress did...

[William F. Owen]

oh yeah...and if I hear one more person claim that "they hate us because we are beautiful" I think my head will explode. (probably to much cheering if I do that on a live feed for the SWJ community!)

Well there's an old book somewhere with the line that basically says "When my enemies are gone, so will I!." - so don't be exploding your head just yet! If I don't have anyone on SWJ to argue with I will shrivel into irrelevance!
- with the same cheering from the SWJ community!

...but, do not underestimate the power of envy, or the stupid and convoluted thinking that sustains it, as a position, to make is seem other than what it is.