It's the Tribes (merged thread)

[herndonja]

Sir,

I have a lot of data on sub tribes with cross border presence, Syrian and Iranian Arab Tribes.

If you have Analyst's Notebook, I can send you some products that I made on that very subject.

I have four years of boots on ground experience, I speak read and write Arabic and English fluently, and have a ton of successful experience in tribal engagement.

Please contact me for more details.

V/r,

Tribeguy

Tribeguy, I just got back from Iraq and would like to get more info on the tribes.

Jim

[tribeguy]

Gentlemen, as the security agreement requires that US forces withdraw from all cities to the rural areas, this brings a very serious shortcoming to light. First, we don't have a mastery of how the Iraqi tribal system works. Secondly, we are moving from the cities, where tribalism is weaker, to the rural areas, where it is stronger. As insurgent sanctuaries are generally in rural areas, they are engaging the tribes to coexist with and recruit from them.

It is imperative that we as Americans fighting the war in Iraq gain some mastery on how to interact with the Iraqi tribal system. When we are in harmony with the culture with which we coexist on a tactical level, it saves soldiers' lives, and it also is a powerful counter to insurgent information operations.

To that, please have a look at www.theiraqitribalsystem.com. It's not the answer to all questions...but it is the first more comprehensive treatment of the subject, with applied methodologies for leveraging the tribal data contained in the book for the purpose of establishing strong relationships with tribal leadership that are based on respect, humility, and trust.

If are able to fill the gap between what we think is intelligence and what causes cultural phenomena such as the insurgent groups in Iraq, we are will be well on our way to helping the Iraqis themselves towards state formation.

That's victory!

Respectfully,

Sam Stolzoff
www.theiraqitribalsystem.com

[tribeguy]

Greetings SWJ Members,

My name is Sam Stolzoff, and I am an Iraq analyst that supports the United States Army. I am a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and with four years of experience in Iraq, I have come face to face with both our successes and failures in counterinsurgency.

The most acute issue is our lack of understanding of the tribal system - which I am sure has hampered us in other areas of operation as well. In 2007, after finally breaking just one entire tribe into its many sub tribes and organizing it hierarchically, I began my search for a culturally correct source for tribal data in the English language. I was shocked that I couldn't find it. The Brits have some of this data, but the spelling isn't standardized and it was filtered through a western prism of tribal studies. In other words, I couldn't make any sense out of it, and given the lack of real tribal analysis throughout the western world (no joke), I sought resources in Arabic.

I found a treasure trove. After translating 'Abbas Al-'Azzawi's 4 volume set of tribal hierarchies into English in a culturally correct manner that could be easily used by anybody with a little bit of training, I compared it to what I learned operationally since 2003.

The data was good - and way more complete than I ever expected. So I began to collect other Iraqi tribal studies in Arabic, and have translated them, as well, so that they could be put in databases and analyzed sensibly.

For example, why is Nuri ((Al-Maliki)) the prime minister? How was he elected? What is his power base? What I found is that as we imposed a democratic model of government on the tribal system, that the ((Al-Maliki)) phenomenon, and many other phenomena were grounded in the tribal system, which exists in much the same way that it has for thousands of years.

Further, I wonder why we didn't have this information 6 years ago, when we needed it the most. It is for that reason that I encourage you all to please begin to study the Iraqi tribal system in depth. The tribal system leads to many fruitful paths with respect to targeting in a counterinsurgency, and explains why our western paradigmatic targeting method has a tendency to fall short of out right victory over insurgent forces, as it can't get down to the root of the problems - which are found in small entities called sub tribes.

I encourage open discussion on this subject. I am not the master of all things tribal, but what I have for you is a substantial amount of data and the analysis thereof, which seems to be in harmony with events on the ground as we are able to perceive them through the news media.

Thanks for reading this - and thanks in advance for your kind participation.

Very Respectfully,


Sam Stolzoff
www.theiraqitribalsystem.com

[marct]

Hello Sam,

Further, I wonder why we didn't have this information 6 years ago, when we needed it the most.

Well, there are a lot of reasons why that material was not part of the available information, although most of them boil down to a simple one: it didn't fit with the main stream institutional paradigm (organizational culture if you will) of most of the US forces. Tom, as an ex-FAO, is one of the outliers .

The tribal system leads to many fruitful paths with respect to targeting in a counterinsurgency, and explains why our western paradigmatic targeting method has a tendency to fall short of out right victory over insurgent forces, as it can't get down to the root of the problems - which are found in small entities called sub tribes.

I assume you are referring to what Anthropologists call a segmented lineage system? We (Anthropologists) have know about and written about that in some detail since the 1930's (cf Evans-Pritchards The Nuer and, latterly, most of the political Anthropology of Africa from the 1950's). There is also an extensive literature on the evolution of tribal organizations and their interactions with and adaptations to the urban environment in archaeology (the late 1980's - early 1990's debates on the "world war" of ~3500 bce come to mind) amongst other places.

From the sounds of it, you have managed to get and translate some really good data - something that is often scarce . Glad to have you here, and i'm looking forward to your input.

Cheers,

Marc

[marct]

Hi Sam,

Please see my question below. If the detail to which you refer assists you in your answer, please answer away!

About noble tribes? Pretty simple concept which, depending on locale, refers to a "sacred" lineage. It shows up around the world in various forms and with different criteria for membership (most often descent, but sometimes via phenotypic characteristic and / or "special" abilities). Sometimes it gets conflated / expanded out into castes or classes (such as the Brahmin / Kshatrya divide in India), other times it is located in specific descent inheritance (sometimes matrilineal, sometimes patrilineal).

Of course, I am familiar with the writings to which you refer- and some are quite good. That was a different time, though.

True, it was a different time, but a lot of the structural models and insights are quite applicable today.

Cheers,

Marc

[tribeguy]

Dr. Tyrell - that is good - but what are the names, specifically of the noble tribes in Iraq, and what role to they play in Iraqi society, specifically?

Another question: what do Abu Umar Al-Baghdad I, II, and III have in common? What can we learn in terms of AQ's recruitment and tribal engagement strategy from this?

Respects,

Sam

Hi Tom:

(I know the answers to these questions - but I ask them to prove the point - which is who cares if I know? The important thing is for "us" to know. Hence this thread.)

I am looking forward to your posts on the noble tribes. There is a good deal of Arabic scholarship on the subject. I promise you that this area will bear fruit, but I caution all that hard and fast rules and inflexible thinking are the enemy.

Iraqi society is incredibly complex, and so are its people. If somebody represents that they are a tribal "expert," or that they "really understand the tribes," think again. That's why I have translated so much arabic scholarship on the tribes, and most particularly their hierarchies. It differs greatly from its western counterpart, and leads to analytical paradigms that are much more incisive, since they are organic to the culture.

Our paradigms and such, whether or not they were part of the institutional culture (I agree, they weren't) still would only bear so much fruit as they filtered through the way that we as outsiders see the Iraqi tribal system.

I am trying to break through that "outsider" barrier. I've had some successes and some failures in that area. Bottom line - I don't have the answers, but I have a lot more questions.

Keep up the good work - stay curious on the subject of tribes. This subject doesn't exist in a vacuum. I have seen that tribalism permeates every aspect of Iraqi society. That's why I started this thread.

I spent 4 years on the ground in Iraq, and will be returning in the near future. I suspect that our paths may have crossed before.


Marc,

I agree that it is a simple concept, until you bring it down to a "what should we do" level of thinking. Just because we think we know a concept doesn't mean that we can apply it.

So, that is the reason that I asked which are the noble tribes of Iraq.

V/r,

Sam

[marct]

Hi Sam,

I agree that it is a simple concept, until you bring it down to a "what should we do" level of thinking. Just because we think we know a concept doesn't mean that we can apply it.

So, that is the reason that I asked which are the noble tribes of Iraq.

Get's us back to Clausewitz doesn't it ? Yeah, I agree that the devil is in the details when it comes to applying the concept. Personally, I don't know who the ones in Iraq are... then again, I've never claimed to have that granular level of knowledge .

The entire issue, though, does raise some interesting points. For example, even without knowing the specifics in an area, and what the actual meaning(s) of those specifics is/are (i.e. what does it actually mean today in terms of operations), if you have the concept, you can get the data either by asking people who know (that's the Socratic in me!) or by looking for structural similarities / analogs. Of course, figuring out what it means is crucial and how it gets transformed is critical to actually using it .

The flip side is getting hung up on concepts and structures that are much less operationally relevant and focusing on them to the detriment of the long term goal. One of the problems that I've noticed with a lot of political / military writing about cultural phenomenon is the implied assumption that culture is static rather than constantly being negotiated (another problem is the naive idea that "We" aren't ruled by it, but "They" are - hah! We should get Rob Thornton in on this one ).

Anyway, I've got to get back to work (sigh).

Cheers,

Marc

[Tom Odom]

Gentlemen, as the security agreement requires that US forces withdraw from all cities to the rural areas, this brings a very serious shortcoming to light. First, we don't have a mastery of how the Iraqi tribal system works. Secondly, we are moving from the cities, where tribalism is weaker, to the rural areas, where it is stronger. As insurgent sanctuaries are generally in rural areas, they are engaging the tribes to coexist with and recruit from them.

It is imperative that we as Americans fighting the war in Iraq gain some mastery on how to interact with the Iraqi tribal system. When we are in harmony with the culture with which we coexist on a tactical level, it saves soldiers' lives, and it also is a powerful counter to insurgent information operations.

To that, please have a look at www.theiraqitribalsystem.com. It's not the answer to all questions...but it is the first more comprehensive treatment of the subject, with applied methodologies for leveraging the tribal data contained in the book for the purpose of establishing strong relationships with tribal leadership that are based on respect, humility, and trust.

If are able to fill the gap between what we think is intelligence and what causes cultural phenomena such as the insurgent groups in Iraq, we are will be well on our way to helping the Iraqis themselves towards state formation.

That's victory!

Respectfully,

Sam Stolzoff
www.theiraqitribalsystem.com

Mr Stolzoff,

I appreciate you want to sell your book; I enjoy my royalty checks as well.

As a retired FAO for the Middle East and Africa, I have long dealt with tribal cultures and offshoots ala Rwanda.

As somene currently engaged in the theater, I can assure you that our understanding of the tribes is quite good and grows better everyday. A variety of factors play in the current state of affairs; the tribes are one of them and one to which we pay close attention.

Thanks

Tom

[davidbfpo]

Sam.

Welcome aboard, your specialism will arouse interest and maybe some will buy your book.

Iraqi tribes are not my special subject, nor Iraq. In the UK I have relied on the work of Dr Toby Dodge, an academic (his webpage: http://www.politics.qmul.ac.uk/staff/Dodge/index.html ) and as IISS expert ( http://www.iiss.org/about-us/staffex...dr-toby-dodge/ ). I am sure on my bookshelf is a post-invasion Adelphi paper on Iraqi tribes.

Maybe worth connecting with him?

davidbfpo

[tribeguy]

Hi Tom- thanks for the kind comments. One quick note about 'our understanding of the tribes is quite good." I beg to differ - but then again, I've worked in different places in Iraq for over four years, and with me, there is no language barrier. I think I am on solid ground when I say that we don't understand the tribal system.

If we do, then I pose this question. What is a noble tribe, an what is its role in society, an how are noble tribes empowered or disenfranchised by the democratic system?


Dr. Tyrell,

Please see my question below. If the detail to which you refer assists you in your answer, please answer away! Of course, I am familiar with the writings to which you refer- and some are quite good. That was a different time, though.

I own Dr Dodge's books. I hope that what I bring to the table opens up some other fruitful realms of thought for you.

- Sam

[William F. Owen]

If we do, then I pose this question. What is a noble tribe, an what is its role in society, an how are noble tribes empowered or disenfranchised by the democratic system?

Good question. If it applies to the Bedouin in Jordan, or the Negev, I'll ask my wife for you! Otherwise I am sure there are others here who can help you out.

[Tom Odom]

Hi Tom- thanks for the kind comments. One quick note about 'our understanding of the tribes is quite good." I beg to differ - but then again, I've worked in different places in Iraq for over four years, and with me, there is no language barrier. I think I am on solid ground when I say that we don't understand the tribal system.

If we do, then I pose this question. What is a noble tribe, an what is its role in society, an how are noble tribes empowered or disenfranchised by the democratic system?

- tribeguy

As I am currently on the ground and working the out of the cities issue --including issues with the tribes--I will hold to my original statement.

We can agree to disagree on the extent of that knowledge. I tend to focus on the necessary. Understanding tribal relations is only part of it.

Good luck with your book.

Tom

[tribeguy]

Some of the magic in there is fully understanding the connection between the Imam's and the tribes. I've discovered some very interesting things in that regard. Problem is that us Americans, in general, are resting on our laurels when it comes to tribal studies. We still think we know something about the tribes - and we are just getting done with our first step!


I like your thinking, Rifleman. In fact, many sheikhs in Iraq are pushing for the creation of a "house of lords" branch of the government. It's not a terrible idea, and at the very least it would allow for sheikhs to either succeed at positively contributing to the government, or proving once and for all that they can't. Nevertheless, I like the idea of including their voices in the government from an official standpoint - it gives the sheikhs a buy-in to the iraqi government in a way that would make the government uniquely Iraqi. In the end, the government has to represent the population in a manner that conforms with the shape of the population.

V/r,

tribeguy

[selil]

An interesting discussion of social networks and network theory useable in ways he likely never considered. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/se...s_we_lead.html

[Kiwigrunt]

And here's another interesting take on our own tribes (17 min. vid)

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_logan...eadership.html

[SWJ Blog]

To Retake Cities, Iraq Turns to Sunni Tribes

[davidbfpo]

This thread has been re-opened for the next post; having been closed in December 2015 Three small threads have been merged in. It now has 119,243views.

[davidbfpo]

Tribes and Global Jihadism' edited by Virginie Collombier and Olivier Roy, is published by Hurst & Co (London) and their release describes the book as:

Across the Muslim world, from Iraq and Yemen, to Egypt and the Sahel, new alliances have been forged between the latest wave of violent Islamist groups –– including Islamic State and Boko Haram –– and local tribes. But can one now speak of a direct link between tribalism and jihadism, and how analytically useful might it be? Tribes are traditionally thought to resist all encroachments upon their sovereignty, whether by the state or other local actors, from below; yet by joining global organisations such as Islamic State, are they not rejecting the idea of the state from above? This triangular relationship is key to understanding instances of mass ‘radicalisation’, when entire communities forge alliances with jihadi groups, for reasons of self-interest, self-preservation or religious fervour. If Algeria’s FIS or Turkey’s AKP once represented the ‘Islamisation of nationalism’, have we now entered a new era, that of the ‘tribalisation of globalisation’?

Link:http://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/...bal-jihadism/?


It might just interest a few here.