Afghanistan ROE Change

[carl]

Also need the ability to take of your uniform OFF and grow some HAIR like plain clothes officers. If you have to blend with the environment and the environment is the people......You know real camouflage.

That sounds like what Frank Kitson did in Kenya long ago.

[tankersteve]

your use of me as an example was a bit too kind, and apples & oranges - for one, I didn't have a guy wounded, which CAN definitely affect your decisions, and two, we really didn't have a plan to get the guy if he didn't come out soon (other than get ready to go get him, just like you).

I really think Blackjack hit the nail on the head when you look at the actual language - air power is the big stick. It discredits us with the locals to use air power because of the likely CDE and the risk-averse nature of using it in close quarters. If you risk some butts and clear it with direct fire, and civilians are wounded/killed, I think the locals will still respect what you were trying to achieve.

Perhaps the criteria for air power needs to be raised - troops in heavy contact on their own base, or an enemy isolated and trying to break contact, etc.

I know there are some who think this is too restrictive, but I think the real intent is for troops to really measure the gain (couple of knuckleheads dead, who will likely be replaced tomorrow) versus the loss (an entire village committed to supporting AQ, due to exceptional losses, especially among women/children).

Oh and Niel, I am at Leavenworth, give me a ping.

Tankersteve

[Ken White]

...It discredits us with the locals to use air power because of the likely CDE and the risk-averse nature of using it in close quarters. If you risk some butts and clear it with direct fire, and civilians are wounded/killed, I think the locals will still respect what you were trying to achieve.

Perhaps the criteria for air power needs to be raised - troops in heavy contact on their own base, or an enemy isolated and trying to break contact, etc.

Well said. Afghans understand and accept bullets; 'Be Omeidi Xodah.' Arty and Air not so much...

[Blackjack]

You also said that Blackjack putting it in terms of running away, etc. etc. -- the way I took what he said was that message could be sent to the local populace if it appears you're unwilling to fight.

We have a winner! That is exactly what I was trying to get at.

If you risk some butts and clear it with direct fire, and civilians are wounded/killed, I think the locals will still respect what you were trying to achieve.

Exactly, that is why I compared an airstrike in COIN to a thermonuclear warhead in large wars. Sure, we could use it, but imagine the political, sociological fallout from it. We end up losing the high ground in the battle of hearts and minds a little more with every 155 HE round, or JDAM we drop. How do we get it back? Put one foot in front of the other, chamber a round and start hunting. Let the people know that they will not be robbed by bandits, they will not have to worry about their children going to school only to be slaughtered. They will not have to endure public beatings by madmen, and a hundred other things.

[IntelTrooper]

That sounds like what Frank Kitson did in Kenya long ago.

When your troops are tactically and morally disciplined, uniforms are overrated.