The UK in Afghanistan

[JMA]

I have been watching the TV series “Ross Kemp in Afghanistan”.

While I appreciate that what this series depicts is what can be captured on film by a crew and what the Brits allow them to show.

However, what one sees of how the British troops operate there is cause for great alarm.

Take the last segment of the second season for example.

There is this place Kajaki where troops are stationed to guard a hydroelectric scheme. The promise is that once complete the scheme will provide electricity to 1.7m people somewhere down the line.

On one of the shots a line of power pylons can be seen extending off into the distance. If anyone thinks the power will flow if the TB don’t want it to they are in denial.

Again we have vehicles (seemingly critical to the operations) with these called 'Jackals' having mounted MMGs and called the fire support group (FSG). Sounds impressive.

Their task seems to be to clear routes for patrols of IEDs (did I hear correctly?)

Ross Kemp says to them “so your job is really to fight the minefield”, and as one they say “yea”.

WTF!

Ok so now Ross Kemp joins them on an ‘operation’. The FSG are to provide fire support to the infantry so off they go driving down the road up to a point when the road has to be cleared by dismounted ‘engineers’ on foot (shades of the Portuguese in Mozambique – late 60s early 70s) .

Not a tree in sight only the mud walls around the now deserted compounds. Vision as far as the eye can see.

Kemp then says: “We are very close to the enemy now and very exposed”

“We are now moving up to a piece of high ground which we will use and obviously the Taliban know that they use it and its frequently IED.”

“Progress is slow giving the Taliban plenty of time to prepare an attack.”

So we hear that ‘V Company’ is clearing a route to the top of the hill for the vehicles.

They get fired upon and all run back to the vehicles, ground troops walk in and take up positions on the open on the ground . After 4 hours of doing nothing the ground troops withdraw. The FSG then withdraw and are fired upon (the odd shot) so use mortar smoke to cover their ‘move’ (I’m being polite here) back to base.

A successful operation?

How would the Taliban have seen this? Probably, no, certainly they would have seen this as a victory. The Brits drove up to the hill as they were nearing the top they were fired upon so they brought in some foot soldiers and lay around for 4 hours and then went home and as they were leaving the TB fired a few parting shots at them which caused the Brits to use mortar smoke to cover their withdrawal back to their base.

I can just hear the TB singing their victory songs.

So what was the point of this?

(more to follow)

[davidbfpo]

JMA,

Ross Kemp's latest series on Afghanistan had some moments when his MoD "minder" and later editing failed to remove some "gems". IIRC there were comments on the series earlier on SWC, but not readily found now. Such as a French Mirage providing CAS; noteworthy as there was no footage of RAF CAS. His last episode back in the UK at Headley Court, the UK military rehabilitation centre was excellent - in reminding us at home of the price our servicemen & servicewomen pay.

The Kajaki Dam and the operation to take a replacement Chinese turbine was weird; as you point out if the electricity is generated how will it reach consumers (far beyond Helmand)? The MoD PR machine went into overdrive reporting on this 'success'.

Ross Kemp has done two series now (in 2008 & 2009) and Kajaki may have appeared in the second.

[JMA]

JMA,

Ross Kemp's latest series on Afghanistan had some moments when his MoD "minder" and later editing failed to remove some "gems". IIRC there were comments on the series earlier on SWC, but not readily found now. Such as a French Mirage providing CAS; noteworthy as there was no footage of RAF CAS. His last episode back in the UK at Headley Court, the UK military rehabilitation centre was excellent - in reminding us at home of the price our servicemen & servicewomen pay.

The Kajaki Dam and the operation to take a replacement Chinese turbine was weird; as you point out if the electricity is generated how will it reach consumers (far beyond Helmand)? The MoD PR machine went into overdrive reporting on this 'success'.

Ross Kemp has done two series now (in 2008 & 2009) and Kajaki may have appeared in the second.

Yes the one I mention is no 5 of the second series and the actual date of filming was 11 Jan 2009 - being the date Marine Travis Mackin was KIA.

The second part is even more weird as this is when Mackin is killed by an IED. It seems almost as if they were trying to draw fire so as to have the pretext to put in a "fast air" strike against that place called Kahalabad. I think I am beginning to understand what the game is there. Are the ROE written up somewhere accessible?

Yes I always look towards the wounded figures to see what that impact is. Do you have the stats as to the wounded - permanently disabled / unable to return to active service? The Brits lost 108 KIA in 2009, so the figure I'm looking for is bound to be scary.

[davidbfpo]

JMA,

Not the official ones, assuming they are in the open. I do have two anecdotes, both from 2008: one infantry battalion effectively lost a company in one tour, even with a few deaths, the injuries of all types mounted up and the second on a RM Brigade tour that the severely disabled was IIRC around eighty. Both talkers were adamant that this scale of injuries, notably disability, was not sustainable.

IIRC the casualty rate appeared on the KoW blogsite.

[JMA]

JMA,

Not the official ones, assuming they are in the open. I do have two anecdotes, both from 2008: one infantry battalion effectively lost a company in one tour, even with a few deaths, the injuries of all types mounted up and the second on a RM Brigade tour that the severely disabled was IIRC around eighty. Both talkers were adamant that this scale of injuries, notably disability, was not sustainable.

IIRC the casualty rate appeared on the KoW blogsite.

This is exactly my point, such casualties are certainly not sustainable.

Need to find out what the IED related injuries are that preclude a return to active service as a percentage of the total.

[JMA]

You have to read this...

http://tinyurl.com/ybd449d

Do you laugh or do you cry?

[marct]

You have to read this...

http://tinyurl.com/ybd449d

Do you laugh or do you cry?

Unfrakin' real !

[Seahorse]

Perhaps these individuals could consider joining another Military. I am aware of several former UK Army personnel that are now gainfully employed with the Canadian Forces. Perhaps they could have a fair hearing that would balance their careers against this transgression and enable their competencies and experience to be fully utilised.

[davidbfpo]

David Miliband, the UK Foreign Minister, has written a long article in the NY Review of Books 'How to End the War in Afghanistan'; yes, it is carefully crafted, official and optimistic. Have a read: http://ow.ly/1xcBO

IMHO I simply couldn't follow the arguments having read many posts on SWC, notably the Karzai thread. Just noted the article appeared on April Fool's Day, surely a mistake!

[JMA]

Perhaps these individuals could consider joining another Military. I am aware of several former UK Army personnel that are now gainfully employed with the Canadian Forces. Perhaps they could have a fair hearing that would balance their careers against this transgression and enable their competencies and experience to be fully utilised.

We had a number of Brits in the forces in Rhodesia. The Air Force had two and both were outstanding pilots.

The officers who came out there were a mixed bunch (lets leave it there).

It was among the NCO's and the troopies where the greatest contribution was made. In the RLI we had a number of very solid Brits who once adapted (to enemy and terrain and the quirks of a 'new' army) were as good as you get and boy did they love shooting gooks. Most joined up in the trooper to corporal range and we had a number rise to the level of company sergeant-
major.

My point then is to attract the Brit "squaddie" or "tom" up to say corporal level as they have a good grounding in the main and are not yet totally set in their ways.

I guess they came to Rhodesia for the war... so what would be attractive about a peacetime army?

[davidbfpo]

Seahorse & JMA,

I know second hand that there is a regular departure from the UK Army to the Australian, so much so that posting an attache is almost a step in the process. Not aware of traffic by non-officers.

JMA,

John Essex-Clark left Rhodesia in 1963 for Australia - in very different circumstances, although I expect you know far more. After UDI and before declaring a republic a handful of Rhodesian officers left too.

[William F. Owen]

The officers who came out there were a mixed bunch (lets leave it there).

The officers who join the British Army are a mixed bunch, and the training and selection mixes it up even more.

My point then is to attract the Brit "squaddie" or "tom" up to say corporal level as they have a good grounding in the main and are not yet totally set in their ways.

Just as a note, what makes British soldiers "good," or seem good, is the culture of the British Army. Take them out of that, and you just have blokes with some training and some hold-over from their Army culture. Culture, as in shared ideas, beliefs and values are critical, and even differs from unit to unit.

[JMA]

Seahorse & JMA,

I know second hand that there is a regular departure from the UK Army to the Australian, so much so that posting an attache is almost a step in the process. Not aware of traffic by non-officers.

JMA,

John Essex-Clark left Rhodesia in 1963 for Australia - in very different circumstances, although I expect you know far more. After UDI and before declaring a republic a handful of Rhodesian officers left too.

There were a couple of steps in the process the first being the break-up of Federation in Dec 1963. A number of officers took a package and left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federat...and_Nyasaland]

'Digger' Essex-Clark an Australian resigned at the break-up of federation and returned to Oz where he joined the Army where he retired a Brigadier. He is still involved with the RLI Regimental Association.

UDI was in Nov 1965 and some left then too.

[JMA]

The officers who join the British Army are a mixed bunch, and the training and selection mixes it up even more.

Just as a note, what makes British soldiers "good," or seem good, is the culture of the British Army. Take them out of that, and you just have blokes with some training and some hold-over from their Army culture. Culture, as in shared ideas, beliefs and values are critical, and even differs from unit to unit.

There was 'structure' in the RLI and the Brits fitted in well. They tended to be older than the Rhodesian conscripts and often kept each others company.

Interestingly I was just recently involved in a discussion about culture and tradition within regiments and the value thereof. When is it a truly positive stimulus and when does the past hold them back? You want to go there?

[William F. Owen]

Interestingly I was just recently involved in a discussion about culture and tradition within regiments and the value thereof. When is it a truly positive stimulus and when does the past hold them back? You want to go there?

I'll go there happily. It's one of my pet peeves. The British Army is extraordinarily bad at telling the difference between culture, cohesion, and tradition.
The Regimental system means many different things to many different people so saying "its a good thing" is simple untrue. What is more there are good Regiments and bad Regiments and being a "regiment" does not make any difference. Most Regimental identities and traditions are pure inventions of convenience.
If you're proud to be in "148 Soup Ladle Cleansing Detachment," then you'll probably fight to the death with your mates. That makes it no different from the Grenadier Guards.

[baboon6]

There was 'structure' in the RLI and the Brits fitted in well. They tended to be older than the Rhodesian conscripts and often kept each others company.

Interestingly I was just recently involved in a discussion about culture and tradition within regiments and the value thereof. When is it a truly positive stimulus and when does the past hold them back? You want to go there?

Remember that the Rhodesian Army not too long before had been an extension of the British Army, and it had still much of the same traditions, ethos and terminology, so it's no surprise the Brits fitted in well. Apparently a lot of Brits as well as well as Rhodesians struggled to fit in to the SA Army afterwards (for those who don't know, a lot of Rhodesian personnel moved south at the end of the war. The majority didn't stay in the SADF very long though some did make a career of it).

Of course there are many South Africans and Zimbabweans, several hundred of each, mostly white but also some black, in the British Army now. Most had no previous military experience before joining.

[JMA]

Remember that the Rhodesian Army not too long before had been an extension of the British Army, and it had still much of the same traditions, ethos and terminology, so it's no surprise the Brits fitted in well. Apparently a lot of Brits as well as well as Rhodesians struggled to fit in to the SA Army afterwards (for those who don't know, a lot of Rhodesian personnel moved south at the end of the war. The majority didn't stay in the SADF very long though some did make a career of it).

And some of the officers were trying to be more British than the British. 90% of that crap was over by the end except in the BSAP (British South Africa Police) where there were was still a minority of old (by then) die hards desperately hanging onto the past (being their comfort zone).

Of course there are many South Africans and Zimbabweans, several hundred of each, mostly white but also some black, in the British Army now. Most had no previous military experience before joining.

Yes but remember they are going in, as it were, as a blank slate with no real experience elsewhere so its a markedly different to those who change armies mid career and have a significant basis for comparison.

[JMA]

The officers who join the British Army are a mixed bunch, and the training and selection mixes it up even more.

Perhaps the RLI was unique where the NCOs were continually being bled off to the Selous Scouts and to a lesser extent the SAS. So young officers did not have the luxury of having a year or so to settle in under the watchful eye of a seasoned sgt. Of course in the Fire Force role they could be closely monitored and mentored by the Commando Commander but would never be deployed on an 8 man external patrol into Zambia or Mozambique (mine laying, ambush, OP etc) until considered competent. It was heard said in the troops that because they had a 'new' officer they were always on Fire Force and never got to do 'externals'. Some troopies liked that, others didn't. The junior officers who performed the best as a whole were the of the 'wild colonial boy' ilk. Fearless agressive bastards. Sure some of their behaviour off duty was a bit wild but then boys will be boys ;-)

[JMA]

Just as a note, what makes British soldiers "good," or seem good, is the culture of the British Army. Take them out of that, and you just have blokes with some training and some hold-over from their Army culture. Culture, as in shared ideas, beliefs and values are critical, and even differs from unit to unit.

I go with that and it also depends what they go into.

If they go into some private security firm they may well self destruct when under pressure (in action) and I suppose if they go into an army it will depend on the type of unit they were in and whether the reason why the went there in the first place (action) was satisfied.

Perhaps to be brutally honest we need to also accept that the Brits who left their army to go to Rhodesia had probably decided to leave anyway due maybe to that they did not personally have the career prospects they had hoped for or were bored to the point of frustration or even did something that was seriously career limiting. Among these were a reasonable percentage of 'difficult' characters who would probably not survive in a peacetime army beyond the initial three to five years.

We (the Rhodesian Army) should have done better with recruiting Brits and other 'foreigners' in the army.

[baboon6]

Yes but remember they are going in, as it were, as a blank slate with no real experience elsewhere so its a markedly different to those who change armies mid career and have a significant basis for comparison.

Agreed, I was sort of trying to make that point, should have explained myself better.