Honduras (catch all)

[slapout9]

"Analysis"? Hmm, I would have said "pre-conceived theological Truthyness" myself . Did anyone else notice that a large amount of the video was provided by Al-Jezeera? I also noticed that the "commentator" (aka talking head) didn't bother to make any reference to the fact that referendums are disallowed within 6 months of an election.

What's bothering me about a lot of this coverage is that nowhere yet have I seen anyone noting that Zelaya was trying to build a Chavez-style dictatorship.

Happy Canada Day Marct here is some video coverage for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CykFEFwP2IU

[John T. Fishel]

I think your analysis is spot on. What concerns me is the unwillingness of the external players - non-Bolivarian - to look at the facts on the ground. They have all created a myth that this was a coup, which if the facts are as reported it was not. Indeed, it was a constitutionally sanctioned action carried out somewhat more crudely than was really necessary - but constitutional nonetheless.

Marct and all other Canadians here, I join in wishing y'all a Happy Canada Day.

Cheers

JohnT

[marct]

Happy Canada Day Marct here is some video coverage for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CykFEFwP2IU

What can I say but Oi Vey?!?!?

Well, 'twas a fun day but doesn't come close to 1979 !!!!

[tequila]

Okay, I just have to ask - where did you get that idea of Harper from? A "Chavez-style leftist"?????? Up here, he's usually seen as closer to ex-President Bush than to wanna-be Big Men like Chavez!

Take it easy, MarcT! I'm not one of those folks on "Talking to Americans", I'm just saying that it's not only leftists Chavistas arguing that this is a coup, but even people like Stephen Harper are as well. Then again, perhaps he is taking too many cheap drugs from your apocalyptic socialist medical scheme that have persuaded him to become a lapdog of Uncle Hugo?

I think your analysis is spot on. What concerns me is the unwillingness of the external players - non-Bolivarian - to look at the facts on the ground. They have all created a myth that this was a coup, which if the facts are as reported it was not. Indeed, it was a constitutionally sanctioned action carried out somewhat more crudely than was really necessary - but constitutional nonetheless.

Certainly the expulsion of Zelaya appears to be un-Constitutional. Article 81 and 102:

ARTICULO 81.- Toda persona tiene derecho a circular libremente, salir, entrar y permanecer en el territorio nacional.

ARTICULO 102.- Ningún hondureño podrá ser expatriado ni entregado por las autoridades a un Estado extranjero.

Also the replacement government has extended the curfew another three days, as well as suspending several Constitutional liberties during those hours.

For English-language speakers, this blog by an American Catholic lay volunteer has been quite informative - Hermano Juancito.

[John T. Fishel]

here is an article in the Honduran newspaper, El Diario Exterior that details the reasons for the action taken by the other 4 constitutional organs of govt*. http://eldiarioexterior.com/noticia....articulo=31965 It closes with the question Tequila raises about forcing Zelaya into exile.

* The Ministerio Publico (roughly Attorney General) in most Latin American countries is an independent constitutional component of govt not responsible to the Executive, Legislative, Judicial branches nor, in HO, the Armed Forces. As the Constitution of HO says, there are 5 branches of govt.

Cheers

JohnT

[tequila]

here is an article in the Honduran newspaper, El Diario Exterior that details the reasons for the action taken by the other 4 constitutional organs of govt*. http://eldiarioexterior.com/noticia....articulo=31965 It closes with the question Tequila raises about forcing Zelaya into exile.

* The Ministerio Publico (roughly Attorney General) in most Latin American countries is an independent constitutional component of govt not responsible to the Executive, Legislative, Judicial branches nor, in HO, the Armed Forces. As the Constitution of HO says, there are 5 branches of govt.

Cheers

JohnT

Maybe the Google translation is off, but I saw no mention of why the Constitution could be ignored w/regards to Zelaya's exile in the article mentioned. Looks here as if the Supreme Court, not the Ministerio Publico, ordered Zelaya's expulsion. However, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to how this was Constitutional given Article 102 especially.

This is the closest thing I can see as to an "explanation".

Por eso la Corte Suprema ordenó a las FF AA la salida violenta de Zelaya y los ministros firmantes del decreto, ocurrido esto el domingo por la mañana, y horas más tarde, el Congreso Nacional conoció de la renuncia del Zelaya, que la admitió y procedió a destituirlo legalmente por las acciones ilegales cometidas.

[John T. Fishel]

Tequila, in noting that forcing him into exile probably violated the constitution but arresting him for his crimes did not so violate it. Perhaps, the officers carrying out the Supreme Court order thought it was more civilized to put Zelaya on a plane to Costa Rica than throw him in the carcel - I dunno.

The linked article, however, does raise exactly the point that sending Zelaya into exile doesn't quite fit with the Constitutional rules and the paper says they will keep investigating (Veremos -we'll see - the last line).

As far as the Min Publico is concerned, nobody ever stated that the office ordered the arrest of Zelaya - the Supreme Court did that. The Min Publico has said that it will prosecute him for his crimes (its job) should he return. Please remember that the legal systems in Latin America in general follow from the french system but with their own modifications. In this, they are very different from our own. That is why Judge Baltazar Garzon in Spain could order the arrest of GEN Pinochet and the Executive could do nothing about it. On top of that, the Min Publico (at least in Panama which may differ some from HO) - as the Atty Gen - is the public prosecutor but independent of the Courts. JMM might have something to say on this topic.

Going back to AT's quantitative analysis, what we are dealing with is the preponderance of the evidence. As she shows, pretty conclusively IMO, that weighs heavily in favor of the 4 branches of the govt other than the Executive. 4 out of 5 is certainly better than 2 out of 3!

Cheers

JohnT

[marct]

Hi Tequila,

Take it easy, MarcT! I'm not one of those folks on "Talking to Americans", I'm just saying that it's not only leftists Chavistas arguing that this is a coup, but even people like Stephen Harper are as well.

Well, okay then - I never said that he was smart, just not a "Chavez-style Leftist" !

Then again, perhaps he is taking too many cheap drugs from your apocalyptic socialist medical scheme that have persuaded him to become a lapdog of Uncle Hugo?

Hey, we aren't the ones with Gov't funded prescription medicine (I wish we were!!!)! I always try to follow the old adage that one should never ascribe to malice (or Chavez-style Leftism ) what can be ascribed to stupidity....

For English-language speakers, this blog by an American Catholic lay volunteer has been quite informative - Hermano Juancito.

Nice blog, thanks for it.

[Gringo Malandro]

Certainly the expulsion of Zelaya appears to be un-Constitutional. Article 81 and 102:

ARTICULO 81.- Toda persona tiene derecho a circular libremente, salir, entrar y permanecer en el territorio nacional.

ARTICULO 102.- Ningún hondureño podrá ser expatriado ni entregado por las autoridades a un Estado extranjero

Article 42, Section 5:
La calidad de ciudadano se pierde:
5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República;


Citizenship is lost for "inciting, promoting or supporting the continuation or the reelection of the President of the Republic."

If he loses his citizenship, article 102 would not apply right?

[John T. Fishel]

it wouldn't until there was a trial and he was convicted of the crimes in Art 42 Sec 5. So, ex-Pres Zelaya is still a citizen; if he returns he will be arrested for the crimes listed there and a trial should ensue. If he stays away until a deal is reached or his term is over then there is not likely to be an arrest and trial.

My guess is that Zelaya was offered the choice of resinging the Presidency and gettin on a plane to Costa Rica or being dragged off to jail in handcuffs and PJs.

Cheers

JohnT

[jmm99]

First we have Sr Zelaya's take from Bloomberg:

Zelaya Plotting Return, Seeks ‘Strong’ U.S. Actions (Update2)
By Andres R. Martinez and Matthew Walter

July 2 (Bloomberg) -- Deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya said he’s plotting his return to the Central American nation and called for “strong” action from the U.S. to help restore him to power.

“Their words are strong,” Zelaya said today during an interview in the lobby of the Sheraton hotel in Panama. “We’re going to see now if their actions are strong.” ......

Then we have quite a different picture from McClatchy:

Posted on Thursday, July 2, 2009
U.S. taking cautious approach to Honduras political crisis
By Lesley Clark | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON — When the ousted president of Honduras hit Washington this week demanding a return to power, he got meetings with a White House adviser and a top U.S. diplomat.

To be sure, President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton already had condemned the coup d'etat that ejected President Manuel Zelaya from his Central American nation. However, the second-tier meetings signaled the new administration's cautious and nuanced management of its first full-blown crisis in Latin America.

Rather than taking the lead, the White House has chosen to defer to the Organization of American States, allowing it to steer an effort to orchestrate a restoration of "democratic order" in Honduras, a move that analysts say might enhance U.S. credibility in a region that's long viewed Washington's intervention with suspicion. ....

[AnalyticType]

From the McClatchy article:

"We have basically taken the Zelaya line, the (OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel) Insulza line, the Chavez line, and we haven't established anything that looks to my mind like an independent position," said Ray Walser, a veteran Foreign Service officer and senior policy analyst on Latin America at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative policy-research center. "We've abandoned leadership in exchange for getting along."

Mr. Walser nailed it.