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  1. #21
    Council Member IntelTrooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups. One armed group is required to overcome the other. Killing the right people enables that. Killing the wrong people is almost always counter-productive. Until you reduce the enemy's ability to constrain your freedom of action, you can't do any of the so called hearts and minds stuff, which should be focussed on creating a hostile environment for the enemy! - not just a nice environment for the locals!
    Hear, hear... maybe this should be in one of those new-fangled wiki FMs.
    Last edited by IntelTrooper; 07-08-2009 at 05:15 PM. Reason: I'm a product of public schooling, please don't hate me.
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  2. #22
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I sure hope so...

    Quote Originally Posted by IntelTrooper View Post
    Hear, hear... maybe this should be in one of those new-fangled wiki FMs.
    Might even be put in a DoD Directive and thus it could replace a WHOLE lot of excess verbiage and half a dozen new manuals involving reinvention of wheels...

  3. #23
    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Default Pretty much covers it

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups. One armed group is required to overcome the other. Killing the right people enables that. Killing the wrong people is almost always counter-productive. Until you reduce the enemy's ability to constrain your freedom of action, you can't do any of the so called hearts and minds stuff, which should be focussed on creating a hostile environment for the enemy! - not just a nice environment for the locals!
    I'd like to nominate this for Quote of the Year.
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  4. #24
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Seconded

    Though this one from Coldstreamer merits mention: LINK

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    The "hearts and minds stuff" appears feasible to me during the fighting. It's just unreasonable to expect to benefit by its fruits before the level of violence is below appropriate levels.

    Fighting the wrong way does furthermore limit the "freedom of action" in later "hearts and minds stuff".

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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups. One armed group is required to overcome the other.
    Can I assume then that you agree with Hamas? The only way the Palestinians will ever get their own country is by overcoming the other armed group?
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMetz View Post
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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rank amateur View Post
    Can I assume then that you agree with Hamas? The only way the Palestinians will ever get their own country is by overcoming the other armed group?
    Huh? Of course I don't agree with Hamas, or any bunch of terrorists. One armed group overcoming another is an observational definition of warfare. Not a moral justification for the political aims for which Hamas or any other bunch of clowns want to apply violence. Hamas is actually a major obstacle to the creation of the Palestinian states.
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    Council Member Brandon Friedman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Huh? Of course I don't agree with Hamas, or any bunch of terrorists. One armed group overcoming another is an observational definition of warfare. Not a moral justification for the political aims for which Hamas or any other bunch of clowns want to apply violence. Hamas is actually a major obstacle to the creation of the Palestinian states.
    I'm not following. Based on my read of your reasoning, either you're suggesting that the Palestinians and Israelis are not technically in a state of warfare, or you're saying one of the armed sides will ultimately have to overcome the other in combat for peace to occur.

    However, I would say they are at war, and the Palestinians will ultimately gain independence without overcoming the Israelis through armed force.

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    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Friedman View Post
    I'm not following. Based on my read of your reasoning, either you're suggesting that the Palestinians and Israelis are not technically in a state of warfare, or you're saying one of the armed sides will ultimately have to overcome the other in combat for peace to occur.

    However, I would say they are at war, and the Palestinians will ultimately gain independence without overcoming the Israelis through armed force.
    Brandon, I think you and Rank amateur are misreading what William wrote. His statement was value neutral observation on warfare.
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  10. #30
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Friedman View Post
    I'm not following. Based on my read of your reasoning, either you're suggesting that the Palestinians and Israelis are not technically in a state of warfare, or you're saying one of the armed sides will ultimately have to overcome the other in combat for peace to occur.
    What I said and am saying is,
    Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups. One armed group is required to overcome the other. Killing the right people enables that. Killing the wrong people is almost always counter-productive. Until you reduce the enemy's ability to constrain your freedom of action, you can't do any of the so called hearts and minds stuff, which should be focussed on creating a hostile environment for the enemy! - not just a nice environment for the locals!
    That is a commonly accepted definition of warfare with an added context relevant to countering insurgents.

    What on earth has that got to do with Israel and the Palestinians?
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  11. #31
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Tom Ricks posted a an Army report about COL Steele and how he dealt with his battalion commanders. This is the link to the particular page on Ricks' blog

    http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/?page=1

    It is the first entry. The report is from Wikileaks. I don't know what the policy here is on those things are so forgive me if I made an error.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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    Default A response to Mr. Owen's definition

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    So what percentage of support are we talking about, and is that willing consent or coerced consent? If the premise of FM3-24 is as you describe then it is deeply flawed and has not read deeply into the history of irregular warfare. The very fact they call it "COIN" should act as a warning

    Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups. One armed group is required to overcome the other. Killing the right people enables that. Killing the wrong people is almost always counter-productive. Until you reduce the enemy's ability to constrain your freedom of action, you can't do any of the so called hearts and minds stuff, which should be focussed on creating a hostile environment for the enemy! - not just a nice environment for the locals!
    I am new to this forum so if I speak brashly, I apologize for my inexperience. All my experience with irregular warfare or insurgency comes from one tour to Afghanistan as a platoon leader. In that tour, I definitely fought insurgents, but I also conducted humanitarian operations (the soft side or hearts and minds).

    When reading the responses to my second comment, it seemed like the responders glossed over Mr. Owen's first thought: that insurgencies or irregular warfare DO NOT REQUIRE THE SUPPORT OF THE POPULATION. Mr. Owen then calls the US Army COIN manual deeply flawed. Many responders on this thread gave kudos to him for his definition of warfare while ignoring this comment. I have to ask the people reading this thread, how many people find the FM 3-24 flawed for its belief that insurgencies are supported by the population?

    Second, Mr. Owens definition of warfare is a correct start, but leaves out the most important detail. Rank Amateur and Brandon were hinting at this specific deficiency. Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups using violence to achieve political ends. In warfare, the political motivation is everything; it is what separates warfare from criminality. Without politics, warfare would not exist.

    Further, Mr. Owens provides the next point: "Killing the right people enables that." Killing is a method, but so is influencing them irregular forces to give up arms, convincing the leadership to join the government, or destroying their logistical support so that they cannot continue fighting. In Carl's link above, Thomas Ricks describes killing people as the least effective way to combat insurgents. I agree. You can kill insurgents or irregular forces, but that is only one method of overcoming an armed force. Convincing whole groups to quit fighting is much more effective and more beneficial in the long run.

    Finally, saying "just kill the right people" is easy. On paper, that briefs really well. The hardest part is determining whom to kill. The answer is intelligence. Intelligence can be coerced, paid for or freely given. The question is, what is the most accurate? Coercion is rarely accurate and paid for intelligence is frequently misleading. Therefore, the best intelligence is that freely given. And, the best way to get that intelligence is to convince locals you care about the best outcome. The way to do that is to try and wins hearts and minds.

    Unfortunately, for soldiers in the US Army and Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan, counter-insurgency is never the simple decision between killing the enemy or population-centric counter-insurgency. Soldiers conduct humanitarian operations, build the local government, train local security forces all while conducting counter-force operations (killing the enemy). What the Rakkasans--to bring this back to the article "Kill Company"--really failed to do was conduct full-spectrum counter-insurgency, and that is why they are a cautionary tale to modern soldiers.

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  13. #33
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Removing violence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael C View Post
    that insurgencies or irregular warfare DO NOT REQUIRE THE SUPPORT OF THE POPULATION. Mr. Owen then calls the US Army COIN manual deeply flawed. Many responders on this thread gave kudos to him for his definition of warfare while ignoring this comment. I have to ask the people reading this thread, how many people find the FM 3-24 flawed for its belief that insurgencies are supported by the population?
    The statement that they do not require the support of the population is correct. Having the support of the population makes the insurgents job easier but such support is NOT required. I have read FM 3-24 (and 3-24.2 which is a slightly better document) and it is an overwordy academic tome that is better than nothing but is flawed, IMO, on several levlels.

    Writing a 'counterinsurgency' manual and relying on a number of 'experts' whose experience was in insurgencies during which they were part of the government forces and who wrote in a time of ideological turmoil resulted in a skewed effort that place excessive emphasis on population control -- governments can do that; intervenors like the US in other nations (Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq to name three) cannot exercise such control -- and most 'host' governments are not likely to do so. The Roman, Mongol and even the British solutions are no longer practical. So you are NOT going to control the population.

    If you aren't going to control it, the best you can hope for is to guide the population into not offering active support for the insurgency. You cannot prevent them from offering tacit support unless you're prepared to use the same techniques the opponent uses and scare them into it. If you aren't going to do that, your alternative is to make the opponent cease terrorizing the population to get tacit support. To do that, the best solution is to kill the opponents -- being very careful not to kill relatively innocent members of the population.

    That requires telling the good guys from the bad guys. How do Americans do that in a culture the like of which most of them even after a couple of tours can barely comprehend? The answer is that with rare exceptions, who can and do 'go native,' you cannot. That means you have to have locals to tell who's on what side.

    This in an area where Achmat, Elder in Sturm Walla will gleefully shop Abbas in the next valley because Abbas was toying with Achmat's cousin's third wife in 1976. So you need reliable locals, say a Political adviser and an Interpreter Walla (think a British RSM type) to keep all a Battalion's interpreters in line while the PolAd insure that he and the 'terps give the straight scoop. That can take three to five years to vet, build and staff. We're just getting around to something on that line and it'll work.Like the manual, better late than never.

    Realize also that Afghanistan is not a COIN fight -- the Afghans may have some elements of one but we do not -- and that's not a semantic quibble, that's a critical difference. There are FID and SFA elements but for most troops, it's a war, pure but durn sure not simple...
    ...Without politics, warfare would not exist.
    Do the Religious fanatics of the world, past and present know that? Loaded question, I know -- religion is political in many senses. However, while your statement is basically correct it has little to do with the reality on the ground. Side trips into Hamas et.al. do not change the fact that Wilf's comment was, as J Wolfsberger noted, a value neutral statement on warfare. It did not address the political aspects, nor is that an Army's job.
    Finally, saying "just kill the right people" is easy. On paper, that briefs really well. The hardest part is determining whom to kill. The answer is intelligence. Intelligence can be coerced, paid for or freely given. The question is, what is the most accurate? Coercion is rarely accurate and paid for intelligence is frequently misleading. Therefore, the best intelligence is that freely given. And, the best way to get that intelligence is to convince locals you care about the best outcome. The way to do that is to try and wins hearts and minds.
    Absolutely correct for openers, agree with you wholeheartedly until the last clause -- you are not ever going to win anyone's heart or mind. What you can do is convince most people that you do consider their interests and that you can clobber the bad guys anytime you can locate them and that you are trying to do this without being counter productive by killing the wrong people.

    Realize that all most of the population in such a situation wants is for everyone to go away and leave them alone. If you or the bad guys offer any benefits, they'll take 'em. If you pose a threat, they'll do what you want them to -- as long as you're watching. If the bad guys do a better and more constant job of watching than you do (and they almost always will), then you need to destroy their ability to do that or negate it in some other way.

    Since they really do not like being visited in the night by Afghan Talibs, Pakistani Talibs, AQ and allies, Smugglers, Opium Traders and other tribes with a grudge and the odd batch of just plain old border Banditti or Crooks (all called 'insurgents' for simplicity's sake... ) in various combinations and with unpleasant ramifications; if you can look like you're going to remove that unpleasantness, you will not win a single heart or mind but they will cease active if coerced support to the bad guys and as you reduce the number of said miscreants and the night visits decline in number and intensity, they will cease fear driven tacit support to them and give it to you -- not out of fear (or gratitude -- all our projects are seen as partial compensation for our presences, no more) but simply because you can reduce the fear quotient. You can remove the violence.

    Thanks for the job you do and keep on keepin' on...

  14. #34
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael C View Post
    I am new to this forum so if I speak brashly, I apologize for my inexperience. All my experience with irregular warfare or insurgency comes from one tour to Afghanistan as a platoon leader. In that tour, I definitely fought insurgents, but I also conducted humanitarian operations (the soft side or hearts and minds).
    Mr. Owen's first thought: that insurgencies or irregular warfare DO NOT REQUIRE THE SUPPORT OF THE POPULATION. Mr. Owen then calls the US Army COIN manual deeply flawed.
    It is historical fact that many insurgencies have not enjoyed total or even widespread support from the populations they are fighting amongst. Nor have many regimes. If 5% support them, does that count as "support of the population." What if it is 1%? What if they 90% in one village and then 1% in the next? To fixate on the popular support is simplistic. Insurgent use violence against the population to gain support

    Warfare is a struggle between two armed groups using violence to achieve political ends. In warfare, the political motivation is everything; it is what separates warfare from criminality. Without politics, warfare would not exist.
    Precisely my point. I am a Clausewitian. Reading some of my other posts would show this.
    "Killing the right people enables that." Killing is a method, but so is influencing them irregular forces to give up arms, convincing the leadership to join the government, or destroying their logistical support so that they cannot continue fighting.
    That is why I said "enables." As in any form of warfare, all the instruments of the state can be applied. Seeking to influence, killing the leadership and interdicting logistics are done in most forms warfare. You cannot do any of those things without demonstrating an ability to apply lethal force, better than they can.
    Allowing the enemy leadership a place in government is usually surrendering to the insurgents, as that is what they want.

    You can kill insurgents or irregular forces, but that is only one method of overcoming an armed force. Convincing whole groups to quit fighting is much more effective and more beneficial in the long run.
    The Insurgents are using killing and violence to break your will. They are also employing all their instruments of power against you, just like any form or warfare. How do you get them to quit fighting without killing a few first? The basis of warfare is to kill enough to convince the majority to quit. Clausewitz and his student Mao-Tse-Tung wrote at some length on this

    And, the best way to get that intelligence is to convince locals you care about the best outcome. The way to do that is to try and wins hearts and minds.
    Well that's simplistic, and not always true. Gaining intelligence against an irregular force is done by developing and exploiting and all sources approach that allows civil and military agencies to basically work as one, and at a level of detail, most military intelligence cannot work at. Again, military history is quite clear on this. Some irregular warfare intelligence work is conducted in extremely hostile environments and with no aid from the local population, other than covertly developed sources. - sorry to bang on, but this is something I was involved in, in a past life.

    A'Stan and Iraq and not the only insurgencies that ever occurred. Do not snap shot these and go "oh look! This is COIN!"
    We've had irregular forms of warfare for 3,000 years. War isn't changing and all wars get won the same basic way.
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    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  15. #35
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Here's an Afghan related article worth reading, Michael C.

    It is from a different perspective and is admittedly biased toward that perspective but it makes a point that merits some thought by a lot of people.

    The Civil and the Military efforts in stability operations are two different things. In US practice for a variety of reasons, the Armed Forces have assumed primacy in such operations and we have thus mingled the two efforts in an unsatisfactory blend that does neither the Civil or the Military role as well as could be expected -- and as should have been expected...

    One of those reasons, BTW, is not the oft quoted "The military folks have to do it due to the security situation." That can be true early on; it should not be allowed to continue past its 'sell-by' date.

    So, biased, yes -- but it merits thought with respect to what is a military function and what is not: LINK.

  16. #36
    Council Member IntelTrooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Absolutely correct for openers, agree with you wholeheartedly until the last clause -- you are not ever going to win anyone's heart or mind. What you can do is convince most people that you do consider their interests and that you can clobber the bad guys anytime you can locate them and that you are trying to do this without being counter productive by killing the wrong people.
    To misquote Hawking misquoting Johst, "When I hear 'hearts and minds' I reach for my gun."

    Seriously, though, this phrase needs to be eliminated from US military vocabulary. Yes, it is good to be polite, culturally sensitive, yadda yadda yadda. Yes, it is good to provide HA and projects and all that stuff. But it is not going to make everyone your friend, turn on the insurgents and win the day. Not on a mass scale, anyway. Not even on a village level. Probably not even on the family level.

    Ken, as usual, is precisely correct. The ultimate purpose is for the government/counter-insurgent force to be able to effectively project a reasonable level power anywhere within its borders, or at least enough so that its residents have a belief that the government can protect them (presumably from insurgents and criminals). It should also be perceived as representing the interests of the residents, but that isn't necessarily absolute.

    I see a lot of inexperienced, starry-eyed Americans get dumbfounded when they show up in a village, make a big show of meeting with the local malik and pass out a few bags of rice and blankets and then don't get the local Taliban just handed over to them. Anyone with an elementary grasp of human motivation and psychology (especially Maslow's hierarchy) should immediately sense what is going on -- Americans/Afghan government have no credibility, they show up, give out some cheap gifts, and leave. Then they expect the locals to put their lives in danger by cooperating with the government, a government that is absent 99% of the time and has no ability to provide even basic services or security.

    No matter how good of "friends" you are, no matter if in their hearts and minds are tattooed Afghan and American flags, no one -- very few, anyway -- is dumb enough to switch sides based on some common courtesy and cheap HA. They will switch sides when they believe it is in their best interests to, and in the rural villages where people have a very long institutional memory, the Coalition and Afghan government is going to have to provide extraordinary proof that they are going to be around for the long haul.

    /rant
    Last edited by IntelTrooper; 07-10-2009 at 05:57 PM. Reason: superfluous suffix
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    "We are unlikely to usefully replicate the insights those unencumbered by a military staff college education might actually have." -- William F. Owen

  17. #37
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Good post. Can I join your rant?

    Well said all (except that part about me being correct, you misspelled unusual...). Agree with all but two things struck me in particular. One made me laugh, the other is sort of sad:
    "...meeting with the local malik and pass out a few bags of rice and blankets and then don't get the local Taliban..."
    My first thought was why on earth would we expect him to turn himself in.

    Not funny really but it does happen that we unknowingly give gifts to the local Talib's or Smuggler's point men. What that does to our credibility is an interesting question...
    "Then they expect the locals to put their lives in danger by cooperating with the government, a government that is absent 99% of the time and has no ability to provide even basic services or security."
    True dat. Couple that fact with the problem that we, NATO, other Coalition members and the Afghans do not have the troop strength available to change that. Nor are we likely to. Thus you're confronted with the harsh fact that the only viable military option is to remove as many of the opposition as possible as rapidly and as efficiently as possible. Which, after all, is why the armed forces are there in the first place...

    As a young troop in my son's airplane rifle platoon before his second deployment in 2003 told an inquiring Australian TV journalist who asked what he was going to do; "Shoot bad guys." She said "but isn't this about winning hearts and minds?" He said "Nah, I've talked to 'em, they ain't coming on that, besides the government's got other people to try to do that stuff -- we kill people." Gotta give the kid credit. He was a Specialist, a lowly SPC, an uneducated, far from powerful peon; Joe. Yet he understood the population's attitude and knew precisely what his job was.

    And who was responsible for what.

    And that was six damn years ago...

  18. #38
    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    As I follow this discussion, the thought strikes me (doesn't hurt much) that we've seen this before in the CIDG and Mike Forces in Viet Nam highlands. The A Teams went in and stayed. The activities were a blend of civic action, self defense training and equipment, and offensive operations.

    There seems to be a tone of exclusive "either-or" to the discussion. Is that really the case?
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  19. #39
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I think the question is *should* that be the case...

    The CIDG effort worked well with the right tribes -- and failed miserably with others. That was sometime due to the particular tribe, sometimes due to the particular SF team. There was indeed 'civic action.' Concrete pads for people who insisted on building their dwellings on stilts being my pet example; they built new houses on new stilts and built pens for their pigs on the pads...

    The Mike Force didn't really work all that well and most, after the fact, admitted that overall, the cost of the effort did not get returned by results. Neither program did what was promised. Both affected a microscopic segment of the population while the bulk of the populace derived little to no benefit -- nor did the US derive much from it. Except experience. Which we discarded. So we can now learn the same lessons again...
    There seems to be a tone of exclusive "either-or" to the discussion. Is that really the case?
    I think the answer in the minds of most at this time would be no, that should not be the case, the Army and Marines must be 'full service COIN operators.' I do not dispute that idea in event there is no other alternative but I strongly believe that the Armed Forces effort to both the fighting and the civil side efforts should be restricted to the minimum possible amount of time for each -- and they will likely be differing lengths of time.

    Such operations involve trying to aid the population. The Armed Forces are not in that business other than for short term emergencies. They do not have the disposition, inclination or the expertise to do the civil support jobs other than minimally. They can and will do a barely passable job overall. We have been in Afghanistan approaching eight years. Efforts to build up the civil side and remove the Armed Forces from the bulk of that effort will likely take another three or four years to fully implement. State will get the primacy on the civil side they should have always possessed.

    The real problem is that Afghanistan is not COIN, it's a war. Our efforts to treat it as COIN effort and our US Government wide institutional failure to be prepared for or to reject participation in such conflicts are partly why it is now a war.

    We can do the Stability Op / FID / SFA thing if we must but let's do it right. Going in as outsiders to 'help' people who do not want your help is not easy, not simple, will generally produce stopgap efforts of little merit and really needs to be avoided if at all possible. If we better prepare the Intel Community, State and USAID to do their jobs -- as well as better training our Armed forces -- perhaps we won't have to do this again for a long while. We certainly should not. If we do, one would hope we were better prepared next time.

    There are two components to such operations. The military effort can aid the civil power and effort. It cannot replace that civil power and attempts to make it do so will always produce uneven and less than satisfactory results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Tom Ricks posted a an Army report about COL Steele and how he dealt with his battalion commanders. This is the link to the particular page on Ricks' blog
    What baffles me is that Steele's antics were well known for years. The guy was notorious throughout the Army for being a loud-mouthed, arrogant, arguably incompetent, and reckless leader. My NCOs had the displeasure of working with him in 3/75. Their assessment bore true in real life when I was deployed at the same time in Bosnia when he was there as a Bn Cdr - thankfully I did not have much interaction with him, but even then his antics got ample attention throughout the MND. And as noted earlier on this thread, I had the misfortune of doing RIP/TOA with his BDE when they arrived in theater. Within one week, tales of his antics were circulating and BDE policies that he put into effect left us all scratching our heads. The guy was a clown.

    Steele has been a known quantity for years. Why was he put in command of a Brigade (let alone a BN before that)? I'm glad that some ADC finally took the initiative to look into this and officially record it, but it seems like too little, far too late. The damage has been done - to the mission, to innocent Iraqis, to the reputation of the Army and 187, to any decent subordinate who chose to ETS (to the detriment of the Army) after enduring his crap, and to any Soldiers who may have been misled by his disgraceful example and thought it right to emulate him.

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