The origins of war

[Greyhawk]

...and that's that. Thog v Og - Sparta v Athens - Hatfield v McCoy - WWII - something that starts next week.

Throw in tribalism, politics, religion, what have you as an team-organizing factor but without that fundamental element there is no "war".

Given time Thog would probably "get" much of CvC. Might even say "well, duh!"

[Greyhawk]

If we brought an ancient Egyptian here today he could probably tell us a thing or two about COIN. If he asks why we'd forgotten I say we blame the library fire.

Switching subject: Did you notice in Ötzi story that (theory) someone retrieved an arrow shaft from his corpse (/theory) but left him his own implements? Accepting theory suggests powerful taboo or no value to any of those items.

[marct]

I've been trying to remember a reference (I'm on holiday now without my library...). Ah....

Algaze, Guillermo, The Uruk world system : the dynamics of expansion of early Mesopotamian civilization / Guillermo Algaze. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, c1993.

Algaze, along with several others whose names I'm blanking on, argues that there was a major war spanning from southern Iraq into eastern Turkey about 3500 bce or so. On earlier conflicts, there is quite a bit in the archaeological record of Europe: check out references to the Bell Beaker People.

Kadesh, as a battle, is fairly late (Egyptian New Kingdom), but if you are looking for the origins of war, you need to step back and ask yourself about origin points. How are you defining "war"? Did war start with a single group or in multiple places? What specific indicators in the archaeological and/or oral historic record are you using as indicators of warfare?

[William F. Owen]

How are you defining "war"? Did war start with a single group or in multiple places? What specific indicators in the archaeological and/or oral historic record are you using as indicators of warfare?

Well IF ...and I submit it is.... war is the setting forth of policy with an admixture of other means, then it would seem likely that war begins when humans first organise as groups. "This is my Cave" and/or "Only we, the Tribe of the Black Hamster, may hunt here."

Nothing much has changed.

[marct]

Hi Wilf,

Well IF ...and I submit it is.... war is the setting forth of policy with an admixture of other means, then it would seem likely that war begins when humans first organise as groups. "This is my Cave" and/or "Only we, the Tribe of the Black Hamster, may hunt here."

Well, if we take that as the definition, we only move the problem of definition back a step: What defines "policy"? It further assumes a split between actions we might call "warfare" and actions that we might call "policy". If we take the operational definition of "This is MY cave", then we are de facto defining policy as whim (okay, that might be apropos in some cases....).

From what I have looked at in pre-historic warfare, it doesn't appear as if we have societies that are segmented to the point of "professional" warriors. We have some social types (e.g. pastoralists) where pretty much everyone uses tools that may also be used as weapons (e.g. slings, bows, spears) and others where the tools are agricultural (actually, horticultural, but let's not be too technical ), say the Egyptian Kopesh sword (from a sicle).

We don't really see social segmentation into warrior castes or professions until moderately later on (e.g. the Epic of Gilgamesh, Egyptian middle kingdom [maybe; could be earlier]), the invasions of the 19th century bce by the M'aryanni, etc. At the same time, most of the "political" decision makers were also priesthoods of one form or another (including the so-called God Kings), at least pre-2500 bce or so.

[IntelTrooper]

We have some social types (e.g. pastoralists) where pretty much everyone uses tools that may also be used as weapons (e.g. slings, bows, spears) and others where the tools are agricultural (actually, horticultural, but let's not be too technical ), say the Egyptian Kopesh sword (from a sicle).

Reminds me of something about plowshares and swords...

Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears: let the weak say "I am strong."

[marct]

Reminds me of something about plowshares and swords...

Evil little beasties.....

[Rex Brynen]

"Only we, the Tribe of the Black Hamster, may hunt here." .

I had no idea you were one of those thieving Black Hamster bastards, Wilf!

See if I have coffee with YOU again...

[William F. Owen]

I had no idea you were one of those thieving Black Hamster bastards, Wilf!

See if I have coffee with YOU again...

Hey! The Black Hamsters were here first!
And the Great Hamster in the Sky, gave this land to his chosen Hamster followers...

No coffee? How about Schwarma?

[Backwards Observer]

Just started Azar Gat's, War In Human Civilization. Justin Kelly mentions it in his recent Quandrant article. Gat's scholarly tome is a bit of a challenge thus far, but seems quite thorough.

Azar Gat: War In Human Civilization (Amazon)

This short article by Richard Wrangham may be of interest, but could be seen as unnecessarily provocative:

Wrangham article

[Kevin23]

Just started Azar Gat's, War In Human Civilization. Justin Kelly mentions it in his recent Quandrant article. Gat's scholarly tome is a bit of a challenge thus far, but seems quite thorough.

Azar Gat: War In Human Civilization (Amazon)

This short article by Richard Wrangham may be of interest, but could be seen as unnecessarily provocative:

Wrangham article

I've actually been using Azar Gat's book as my main literary source. However I have also been looking and trying to get ahold of Lawrence Keeley's Myth of the Peaceful Savage. Along with some of the books written by Martin Van Cleveld.

Overall though I find Anzar Gat's War in Human Civilzation to be an excellent overview on the subject from the beginning of time all the way up to the present and covering everything in between also.

[William F. Owen]

Overall though I find Anzar Gat's War in Human Civilzation to be an excellent overview on the subject from the beginning of time all the way up to the present and covering everything in between also.

I know Azar from his "History of Military Thought", and was unaware of his other book. - until he told me, when I had lunch with him a few months back - but it is extremely highly regarded, as is he, in these parts. I'd be very interested in your opinion of it.

[Backwards Observer]

I know Azar from his "History of Military Thought", and was unaware of his other book. - until he told me, when I had lunch with him a few months back - but it is extremely highly regarded, as is he, in these parts. I'd be very interested in your opinion of it.

I'll chime in, if I may. Only halfway into Ch.4, but it's possibly the most serious treatment of the subject I've read thus far. Although practically every page is a dizzying multi-disciplinary overload, the writing is clear and concise with a focussed thrust. The sheer intellectual mass of it is making me feel both smarter and dumber at the same time. Should probably be on a reading list or something. Mr. Gat is quite likely a genius, what did he have for lunch? (j/k)

[goesh]

I was thinking there was a woman that complicated things, after the pig, in the Hatfield v McCoy dustup - a man can't go wrong with a hillbilly woman but they won't abide any messing around and likely will get quite violent, even kill, if that happens. I think women can be factored in somewhat when it comes to war especially in pre-historic times - a big tribe experiences a shortage of women and the men start getting to violent in the competition for a mate and the only thing can be done is go raiding for some brides.

[Ken White]

I was thinking there was a woman that complicated things, after the pig, in the Hatfield v McCoy dustup - a man can't go wrong with a hillbilly woman but they won't abide any messing around and likely will get quite violent, even kill, if that happens...

Yep, the feud would have likely died after the Pig got settled in Court had it not been for Roseanna McCoy taking up with one a them Hatfields. Went downhill from there.

Still true around the world. Part of the Islamic fundamentalist effort today is fueled to an extent by the defining the desired role and attire of women...