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Thread: Everything You Know About Counterinsurgency History Is (possibly) Wrong!

  1. #61
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    I'm not sure what to call it when the two organized groups are outside the government and battling each other, but not the government; not very "civil"; but perhaps more than a feud...
    You may be right, but....
    Sunni Miltia v Shia Militia? Tutsi v Hutu? Pashutn v anybody? Anyone still want to call these things "insurgencies?"
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  2. #62
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    I'm not sure what to call it when the two organized groups are outside the government and battling each other, but not the government; not very "civil"; but perhaps more than a feud...
    I suspect that that would depend on the form of government . I've been trying to think of examples and the ones that pop to mind are gang fights, clan feuds (e.g. Scots-English border raids) and, occasionally, outright "wars" (in the Holy Roman Empire). On the whole, I am really hesitant to use the post-Westphalian state as the basis for any general model of conflict.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  3. #63
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Default Hold on!

    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    I suspect that that would depend on the form of government . I've been trying to think of examples and the ones that pop to mind are gang fights, clan feuds (e.g. Scots-English border raids) and, occasionally, outright "wars" (in the Holy Roman Empire). On the whole, I am really hesitant to use the post-Westphalian state as the basis for any general model of conflict.

    Marc,

    Are you suggesting that somehow the Western post-Westphalian view is not the only version of what "right" looks like? or that every state that either fails or refuses to adopt such a construct is not a "Failed state" demanding immediate fixing???


    I probably do use modern western words, but hey, here I am. But I don't see how this would not apply equally well to Kingdoms, or looser confederated empires like the one led by Genghis Khan, etc. A Sovereign of some nature equating to a state.
    Robert C. Jones
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    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

  4. #64
    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Whoah there! You do not have to be a state to conduct warfare. Why is this held to be important?
    You merely have to have a collective policy that you wish to advocate by violence. That's it.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  5. #65
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Bob,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Are you suggesting that somehow the Western post-Westphalian view is not the only version of what "right" looks like? or that every state that either fails or refuses to adopt such a construct is not a "Failed state" demanding immediate fixing???
    Yup !

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    I probably do use modern western words, but hey, here I am. But I don't see how this would not apply equally well to Kingdoms, or looser confederated empires like the one led by Genghis Khan, etc. A Sovereign of some nature equating to a state.
    I suspect it would apply to many kingdoms and some confederacy "empires" (although I suspect that would only be true if they had a history of a "Royal [Noble] Tribe"). I don't think it would really apply to the Iroquois Confederacy, merchantile "empires" such as Venice, most pastoralist groups, or many other social forms we've had in our history.

    Even in situations where the "sovereign" is incarnate, we have some problems with it (e.g. Machiavelli's distinction between the first amongst equals of the west and the Eastern despot). Things, to my mind, get trickier still when we bare dealing with discarnate sovereigns such as a God or Goddess (e.g. the Sumerian city states), a Constitution, etc. In that case, the "sovereign" can't "speak" for "themselves, but rely upon a group of people who constantly interpret the "will" of the "sovereign" - often in mutually contradictory ways .

    Honestly, I don't know what terminology would work best for our current situations . I'm leery of using the post-Westphalian terminology because it assumes too many things that, IMO, just aren't present.
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  6. #66
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    Default Matter over mind/setting the record right

    (wrong thread/wrong post)
    Last edited by goesh; 08-03-2009 at 04:19 PM.

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