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  1. #1
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default By Afrcan Standards, Naive at best

    Hey Eric,
    Thanks for the links !

    ... definition of a fragile state, simply, as one unable to meet its citizens’ expectations or manage changes in expectations and capacity through the political process.
    If that were all it took to meet the definitions of a fragile State in Africa. There's little that I could gain from this in order to prepare for a tour in Sub-Sahara in any capacity even today. After more than 14 years, I could barely apply the same logic here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubalicious View Post
    If we stop talking about what's not there and start noticing what is there
    Concur. Not too sure why we can't see beyond our political means/methods. But then, being part of a Country Team never made much sense to me
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  2. #2
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    This "resilience" talk is redundant. John Robb* is totally in love with it, but resilience isn't much more than modesty, common sense and competence.

    It's completely redundant to other virtues that are well-known.

    The "resilience" buzz is useless spiel.




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    http://www.google.com/search?as_q=re...ghts=&safe=off
    Last edited by Fuchs; 08-03-2009 at 09:42 PM. Reason: added link

  3. #3
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Agree.

    I'd add stamina and refusal to quit to your list. Resilience suggests that people be people. How innovative...

  4. #4
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Disagree. Resilience is an excellent topic in a variety of theaters. The opposite though of resilience is not fragile it is brittle. Something can be incredibly strong (like an oak tree), but if it is brittle it will shatter under force.

    Resilience as a concept is a precursor to much of the discussion on sustainability and military concepts such as force protection.

    Resilience as an ideology is a much broader set of concepts than John Robb and others have discussed. Often pigeon holed resilience refers to societal rather than simple military matters. A resilient society can withstand privation and sacrifice much more than a "just in time" inventory society with levels and depths of brittle systems built upon each others.

    Similarly the use of of contractors in the battlespace and substantial reliance on high cost weapons systems may appear to be effective but increase the brittle nature of conduct of war. Overcoming or adapting may be sexy to scream as mantras but if the systems were resilient in the first place would be unnecessary.

    In the end resilience admonition to societies from a variety of angles and to people directly that survival is about more than having a McDonalds available in time of disaster.
    Sam Liles
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  5. #5
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I see and agree with some of what you what you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Disagree. Resilience is an excellent topic in a variety of theaters. The opposite though of resilience is not fragile it is brittle. Something can be incredibly strong (like an oak tree), but if it is brittle it will shatter under force.
    Agree.
    Resilience as a concept is a precursor to much of the discussion on sustainability and military concepts such as force protection.
    True but I disagree with the concept (not that anyone cares...) because it leads to esoteric discussions instead of concentration on issues.
    A resilient society can withstand privation and sacrifice much more than a "just in time" inventory society with levels and depths of brittle systems built upon each others.
    Granted on the effect -- how either Society responds though is the indicator of their real 'resilience.' Also note that 'not just in time' society may surprise you with their resilience in spite of the massive change in their norms.
    Similarly the use of of contractors in the battlespace and substantial reliance on high cost weapons systems may appear to be effective but increase the brittle nature of conduct of war.
    The 'resilience' is shown by how that force functions without contractors should they be abruptly removed. My suspicion is they would do far better than the Contractors would like to believe
    Overcoming or adapting may be sexy to scream as mantras but if the systems were resilient in the first place would be unnecessary.
    You may use resiliency; I'd prefer reliable and redundant; not the same things
    In the end resilience admonition to societies from a variety of angles and to people directly that survival is about more than having a McDonalds available in time of disaster.
    One would hope so. Don't think I've been to a McDonalds in over 10 years.

    I get the point, Sam -- and do not disagree with the broad context. I do, however, believe that 'resilience' is built in to military structures and to people in general. That and I shudder every time a new term du jour pops up...

  6. #6
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Disagree. Resilience is an excellent topic in a variety of theaters.
    I challenge you to name one instance where "resilience" as a concept helps to gain an insight that isn't already covered by conventional means.

  7. #7
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Hi Fuchs,

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    I challenge you to name one instance where "resilience" as a concept helps to gain an insight that isn't already covered by conventional means.
    Could you be a little more explicit about what you mean by "conventional means"? There are precursors to the concept of resilience in Karl Polanyi's writings in the 1940's and in some of the Anthropology literature even earlier.
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  8. #8
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    "Resilience" has for example been applied to financial markets. Those markets would need to become "resilient" to avert further breakdowns.

    In that case I would point at the basic requirement of systemic risk control (as conventional means) to show that we need no "resilience" concept to explain or create stable financial markets.

  9. #9
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Default God, grant me the serenity...

    Circa 1981, psychology 101... taught us that resilience was a personal trait and by no means something conventional. Rather, an individual trait with core values at the root. Something to the tune of being able to effectively deal with things efficiently in spite of the level of difficulty.

    It used to be called Primary and Secondary Control. But, never conventional.

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  10. #10
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    I challenge you to name one instance where "resilience" as a concept helps to gain an insight that isn't already covered by conventional means.
    Resilient communities have little need for federal assistance in disaster. As found in the red river floods where farmers responded rapidly to impending disaster. Their resilience allowed for a response to an event that dwarfed the scope (if measured in area rather than media) of New Orleans which was an example of a brittle community. Communities are made up of individuals that create characteristics in the larger society that are independent of the individual efforts.

    Your challenge though is a non sequitur. The concept of resilience IS a conventional term and it has only recently been discovered by military pundits. Resilience, sustainability, reliability, and robustness can all be found in systems and organizational literature dating back decades.
    Sam Liles
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  11. #11
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Yes, and "kinetic" was a perfectly well-defined physical term until it was turned into a military buzzword. I don't care about non-military, non-security meanings. This is about national security stuff, and I am obviously convinced that "resilience" is a useless buzzword in national security affairs.

    You didn't meet my challenge anyway.
    Repeat:
    I challenge you to name one instance where "resilience" as a concept helps to gain an insight that isn't already covered by conventional means.
    So what could the citizens or bureaucrats learn by studying resilience theory about preparing themselves better for the next disaster?

    I say: Nothing.


    Most citizens of New Orleans fled or became egoistic (on the level of families). The failure can easily be explained with the well-established military term of cohesion.

    Even IF the disaster example was helpful to military theory (and I don't think it is, except probably for irregulars); military theory has already a much better, less vague term that points directly at the point of failure instead of being named for a desirable end-state.
    Last edited by Fuchs; 08-04-2009 at 11:52 PM.

  12. #12
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Well, I'll be...

    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    Resilient communities have little need for federal assistance in disaster...
    We've been through five hurricanes since I moved to Florida, no Federal or State help to speak of in any of them. We're resilient. And I didn't even know it; I just thought we did what had to be done.
    ...it has only recently been discovered by military pundits. Resilience, sustainability, reliability, and robustness can all be found in systems and organizational literature dating back decades.
    Add redundancy and remove resiliency and I agree.

    I have no beef with resiliency per se, problem in my opinion is its discovery and I'm sure impending overuse by the punditocracy.

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