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Thread: Army Officer Commercial

  1. #41
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWJED View Post
    But one irritation - They lead from island to island - with American Caesar Douglas MacArthur in the footage - well - I would beg to say that Chester Nimitz would be that leader.

    And a little known fact concerning George Washington crossing the Delaware River (They lead across frozen rivers):
    Yeah, I caught that too. We HAVE crossed frozen rivers, just not the Delaware in the painting, which has significant errors.

    I will defend the island hopping, MacArthur led a very tough series of amphibious invasions, his command was separate from Nimitz. Although the footage of him coming ashore on Leyte was staged.
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  2. #42
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
    You got me, Selil. I am actually pursuing a degree in military history with an eye towards a masters so that I can eventually teach. But other than academia, what jobs give you that time off?

    SFC W
    If you want teach you have to have the PhD. Just sayin.

    Basically as a systems engineer working in implementation I negotiated at my last employer an embarrassing salary and 6 weeks of paid vacation (plus all weekends home). That was with 15 years of experience in the industry though and a huge funnel of work coming in (none DOD type work). I left that job for a lot less money because I was on the road monday through friday most weeks with a family at home. Might not be an issue for a military guy, but then again I'm not military anymore. Those jobs are out there.

    For me, I always wanted to go back into the military but never seemed to get it done. The commercials hit a soft spot. The same spot that had me enter academia versus taking a CSO position in any of the corporations that offered. As a prof I might still get to serve the community. Those commercials play on that egalitarian thread. That same thread that we respect and honor in the military officers and enlisted soldiers and sailors that currently serve.

    Service with honor and a creed of respect for America as a nation is a big deal. The commercials speak to that quite convincingly. You know there are a lot of jobs out there that you can have but the military is a career you live. It is likely one of the largest mistakes of my life (right up there with the first wife) that after breaking my back in the Marine Corps, after healing up and walking again, I didn't petition to get back in. Then again woulda, shoulda, coulda, life is what we've done not what we wish for. So, I did pretty good in law enforcement, and really good in international telecom, and now I'm moving up the ladder in academia. I'm not much up on what it means to be an officer in the military I never was one.

    The commercials speak to team work. I've ran telco implementations teams with a cast of thousands and filled them with veterans from different services. Those veterans become the fulcrum where talk becomes success. On world wide projects those veterans represented a huge resource for understanding culture and foreign societies. Just my two cents on the outside world. The commercials are important to serving soldiers because for those getting out, this is how employers are going to think about you. The Army of One running through the desert all alone was bad because it said they don't play well with others. The big world of non-DOD commercial interest is about relationships. These commercials are much better.
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    Geez, I love a hearty discussion as much as the next guy but when did this turn into Tom Ricks' the Ivy Leagues should save the Army from itself thread.

    I agree that the Army should try to mend fences with the Coasters by revamping officer recruitment. It just doesn’t make sense to ask college students to drive 50+ miles from one campus to another in LA traffic for an ROTC class. However, I don’t think that someone would necessarily be a more effective operator in a COIN environment just because he/she went to an Ivy League and/or studied abroad (not everyone from such schools is a Fick or Exum ). Heck, look at what Ivy League grads did to our economy? The last thing they need is a weapon and minimal adult supervision. Furthermore I have found people who studied abroad to be a representative of the normal student body… meaning they are no more culturally nuanced, intelligent or resourceful. Some students grow because of their experience while others just return with an increased alcohol tolerance. And I say this as a multi-lingual west coaster.

    In related news, I guess this ad is part of a whole series of spots about the marketability of leadership skills one would gain as an officer. Grrr, it took 48hrs for them to f- it up for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Massengale View Post
    1. I of course said nothing of the kind. (Ok, I don't have much good to say about Killeen or Lawton or Fayettville. Have you been to any of those three?)
    Lived in two, currently in one of them. Never had any issues; of course I'm one of those mid-western hicks you despise.

    Although, in the 72 hours I spent in NYC, I was propositioned by two prostitutes, had my life threatened, had some Israeli guy try to hustle me in pool at a bar, and paid $13 for a can of Copenhagen.

    I went to ROTC Camp with a kid from Cornell. I had to show him how to read a map...and take his M-16 apart...and use his MRE heater.

    Folks from all walks of life contribute in their own way. No one type of person has the patent on how to be a successful Army officer.
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

  5. #45
    Council Member Uboat509's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    If you want teach you have to have the PhD. Just sayin.
    Eventually, sure. But to get a job at a community college you just need a masters. I figured I could do that while I worked on a PHD. Plus I could be sure whether or not my wife is right and that I would like to teach at a university.

    SFC W

  6. #46
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    I think Courtney has some valid points, but is diving too much into elite vs rest. The following is my Yankee odyssey from high school to the Army. I'm not a martyr or special, and I think many have the same or similar story.

    I am from northern NJ, and went to a Catholic liberal arts school in Massachusetts. Not exactly bastions of conservatism, but not as extremely liberal as one would think. Mostly working/middle class practical. Only one or two guys from my high school went straight into the military. My best friend from home did Navy ROTC out of high school (his brother was 10+ years in Navy), and I almost did AF ROTC, but ended up just going to college. My parents both worked in mid-town NYC, and were in the city that morning in September. A month or two later, I joined Army ROTC, which was across town on a different campus. In the winter (most of the school year), the town had snow, so getting up for PT and ROTC included snow shoveling. Navy/Marine ROTC were on campus, and were rather popular, but AF and AR were across town.

    Only 2 or 3 students per class out of 600+ were Army cadets. The college did not recognize ROTC for credit. The college only offered housing assistance if you did ROTC for all 4 years. The college cost well above the ROTC scholarship I received, which was priced more for state or technical schools, not Northeastern private schools. The admin were Jesuits, and mostly liberal and anti-war (despite the fact that a Jesuit from the school won Medal of Honor in WWII) though the student body was largely conservative. My buddies partied, stayed up, and slept late. I did my best to join them, but was up at o dark thirty every weekday. When I started wearing BDUs once a week, people would look and wonder. A friend asked me if I was in the AF or NAVY, despite my ARMY nametape. A couple people sought opportunities to debate war, Iraq, President Bush, etc... but I tried to avoid those discussions. My answer was usually "Unfortunately I'm not in charge yet." Most smiled or said thanks.

    Senior year, my friends worried about jobs, I worried about branch and duty station. After graduation, everybody packed up and planned summer vacations or grad school, a couple went right into work. I packed up, went home to NJ for 3 days, saw friends and family, then packed out and left for Fort Knox and Fort Sill. I didn't make it back to NJ until Thanksgiving. Then again for Christmas. Then I went to Airborne and Bragg, and did not go home until summer exodus. Then the next time was pre-deployment leave. I was engaged when I left, not when I came home a year later. All 3 of my senior roommates are married to their college girlfriends (1 has a child). I now have an amazing girlfriend 2000 miles away, waiting for me to find out where I am heading next. I still can't tell my parents when I will be home to visit again. I've been back to NJ twice this year.

    I think my experience in ROTC was pretty common, though the NE and West probably experience more of the extremes. The location of posts in the south is due to history, available land, and politics. There is plenty of not in my backyard up north, and land in most NE states is too "valuable" to use as an impact zone or training area. Fort Drum is Canada, not NE. That's like telling someone from Texas, "Hey, Fort Polk is close." People from the northeast are generally disconnected from the military bc of social, political, and geographic reasons. If Fort Dix was an active post, or Fort Devens reopened, you would get more volunteers from the area. It would not solve the problem, but it would help retention and exposure.

    Being in the Army has forced me to see the rest of the country, which I am grafteful for, but has also forced me across the country from my family and friends. The Army is cut off from a large portion of the country bc of geography. I don't think the good vs better colleges is a winning debate, but growing up in the NE was a different experience than KY, OK, or NC. Not better, different. I grew up in a town with mixed Black, White, Spanish, and Asian populations, and nobody realized that "mattered" until high school when we "grew up." I initially couldn't do much good walking through the woods, and I itch if I smell Poison Ivy, but I could talk to different people and get along. Spending time in KY, OK, NC (and now AZ) showed me that my opinions and stereotypes of the rest of the country were also incorrect, but that there were/are differences. Family and religion are more public and prominent outside the NE, but I don't remember any David Allan Coe sing alongs back home.

    The shortage of NE or Western Officers will take more than posts in those areas to help recruit. Colleges in general, and the cultural elite need to change. Society as a whole needs more exposure. Short of a draft, I honestly don't know how you would do it though. The current call to service is focused more on community work or Peace Corps than on military service. It falls on us to let people know what we actually do, and that we are regular people despite our awesome clothes and occasional involuntary overseas work. I do my best to give Yankees a good name (and Jeter and company are finally helping out), and I think its better for the Army to have a mix of the whole country. I never missed an opportunity to remind my Georgia born and raised Battery Commander that I was finally exposing him to "civilization." He never missed an opportunity to remind me that he was exposing me to "real Americans." We were joking, but too many people believe that to be true. My adventures and travels in the Army have made me a better person and better American, but still come at high price. I think the price has been worth it, but is getting tougher, and getting more people to pay that price is harder than new commercials (and yes, this new commercial is pretty good).
    "What do you think this is, some kind of encounter group?"
    - Harry Callahan, The Enforcer.

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    Wow, go home, come back the next day and there's three pages and somebody who has stolen my last name! AND he hates the midwest!

    Quote Originally Posted by JarodParker View Post
    How is it silly? I can’t find the PDF at the moment and the Marine Officer site has been changed but there was a breakdown of all the USMC commissioning sources and I’d say about 20% were OCC graduates (people who already have degree in hand).
    The Marine Corps is a very different animal in how they generate officers - there isn't "Marine ROTC" or "Marine Academy" (there's some kind of competitive program inside Naval commissioning iirc). I'm not really sure you can hold those numbers up to the other three services and make a fair comparison. There's a different process and a different pool that they are "making" Marine Officers from.

    (insert Ain't Ready for the Marines Yet joke here)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Courtney Massengale View Post

    The Marine Corps is a very different animal in how they generate officers - there isn't "Marine ROTC" or "Marine Academy" (there's some kind of competitive program inside Naval commissioning iirc). I'm not really sure you can hold those numbers up to the other three services and make a fair comparison. There's a different process and a different pool that they are "making" Marine Officers from.
    Having served as an assistant to a very successful Officer Selection Officer, the most pervasive challenge is communicating to potential applicants what it means to serve as an officer. The difference between the enlisted and officer ranks are not well understood in any region of this nation.

    If the US Army has a self interest in recruiting from U.S. News's top 20 schools in America, it will do so. Based on some of the things Courtney has posted, I predict that the US Army has not found that the performance matches the pretentiousness among these students. My view is that these are students who have always been successful among their peer group, and have always had good options (and resources) available to them. Therefore, to tell these students that: the branch they serve in, the continent they live on, and the people they spend time with will all be determined in a lottery process, conducted by a committee someplace else, is simply not going to work.

    Lastly, if these students are the academic and cultural elites they think they are they should have no challenge finding worthwhile things to do wherever they go. If they are worn out by a lack of urbane attractions, do they possess the resilience to serve as a military officer?

    I have served with Marine lieutenants from MIT, Harvard, Duke, Georgetown, and Cornell. Also, I have served lieutenants who had founded companies or launched satellites with major corporations. Once they hit the fleet, the playing field was very level. Only the MIT student stands out (small sample, like the awful study the colonel published on page 1).

  9. #49
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default That's a good post

    Very good, in fact. BZ.

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    Interesting read here on the roots of American bellicosity:

    http://www.the-american-interest.com....cfm?piece=620
    bs

  11. #51
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Good article, I think he's got it sorted pretty well.

    Thanks for the link.

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    I know nothing of how this commercial was focus-grouped, watered down, and coded. My general impression upon viewing it, and after reading through the comments here, is that it is targeted towards family members of potential officers – NOT the officers themselves. I cannot imagine viewing that commercial between the age of 18 and 22 and wanting to join up. On the other hand, my friends and family would probably view it and it would either sustain or improve their perception of military service and it may prompt them to either encourage or not discourage me from pursuing such a career.

    Regarding the cultural divide, if any, and the perceived failure to target certain sub-cultures within our country – I think we are reading too much into what may not be there. This was, in my opinion, a very mushy, feel-good, cheery commercial that was light on content – not likely to appeal to ANY potential officer candidates. It appeals to their families.

    In regard to targeting the audience of potential recruits/candidates, I still say that the British Royal Marines have cracked the code. I wish we would just copy, paste, alter the uniforms and accents, and repackage it for the Army. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcaM_0ztbM

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    In regard to targeting the audience of potential recruits/candidates, I still say that the British Royal Marines have cracked the code. I wish we would just copy, paste, alter the uniforms and accents, and repackage it for the Army. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcaM_0ztbM
    Only if you want to raise and uphold that higher standard. Works for me; would work for a 300-350K person Army that could do more than can the current model.

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    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Ok, I just gotta ask: Why use "Massengale" as a screen name?

    A good friend and officer I respect tremendously once accused me of being Sam Damon. (A gross overstatement, but a compliment of the highest order). But if someone called me Courtney Massengale I'd be tempted to lay them out.

    Particularly curious as we discuss officership on this thread.

    (Graduate and commissioned at West Coast podunkville myself. Used to be with considerable justification called "The West Point of the West". Go Beavs!)
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    Default Balance - Generally good

    I admit that I skimmed through a lot of the stereotype slinging and back-and-forth, so I apologize if I am rehashing old ground, but I would like to throw in my two cents. I have met and served with what I think would run pretty well as the best and worst officers from the "elite," the coasts, the south, hickville, etc. While each of these demographics contributes differently and therefore may have more or less examples for others to draw on when making their opinions, I find it hard to believe that any one region or demographic has the corner on soldierly or leadership qualities. All bring something to the table and the qualities of a good officer really come down more to unique personal traits and how an individual deals with them or puts them to work as a leader than any regional or class culture. Things generally get bad, though, when someone falls into a stereotype or, even worse, tries to live a stereotype. The liberal elitist who looks down his nose on the troops, cringes at the arch-conservative banter, and tries to talk like a thesaurus is no worse than the officer who tries to act like a Skoal commercial and thinks he wins cool points by speaking and acting stupid, to the point where a field grade officer opens an address to military, diplomatic, and commercial bigwigs from several nations by drawling, "Even though the military sent me to get a masters degree, I'm still not all that bright." True story.

    For those who believe that all the real officers agree with the viewpoints (political, cultural, social, etc) that seem to permeate the service right now, realize that many keep quiet on their positions rather than making for difficult conversation in a professional environment. What I'm saying is that, just because everyone seems to think the same way and act the same way, that doesn't mean we really are all from the same demographic politically, socially, etc. Thus, the negative examples of X demographic that stand out usually stand out because they've sky-lined themselves as a-holes.

    Finally, although I made the decision to serve very early on, I think that one of the comments in this thread that essentially dismisses people who -paraphrase- passed up multiple opportunities to serve their country -end paraphrase- is offensive. Not everyone grows up wanting to serve and not everyone who does is really thinking of serving the country. People do it because of family, ROTC money, the cool factor of the job, etc. Those who have had different career paths but then decide one day that they want to have more meaning in life and do something that really matters can be among the most dedicated officers out there and often bring unique views and skills to the fight. It is one thing to be an 18-year old all fired up about shooting guns and playing soldier (some get it some don't), but it is much different to chose after college to enter the service. Aside from it being a job and a relatively secure one, the decision is probably based more on the actual notion of service than it is for many of us who have always wanted to be in the military before we really knew what service meant. If the Army can bring even a few more of these people in, then bravo.

  16. #56
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Agree. Balance. Been watching the environment closely since 1949.

    During that entire period, all of the Services have pretty well represented the society of the day from which they come. Among the better educated in the US, the Navy has always been more socially acceptable, the AF and Marines wander back and forth in second and third place and the Army is always the least accepted socially. All the services have varied over time in what that acceptance means and it has had various impacts on recruiting and officer accessions. There has always been a rural/urban, an East/West and a North/South disconnect -- mild but present. We're a very large nation with over 300M people. Lot of variations. By and large though, the services have generally been supported by most in the nation and most people in the service have adapted to others without major trauma. Far better today than it was about the time of Korea -- major riots occurred over States of birth and such, to include killed (very few) and wounded (most lightly). Those days are gone and good thing -- lets the MPs and Shore Patrol have an easier life.

    It's also been my observation that the amount of religious fervor or noise, general social attitudes among service people and more pretty much reflect the nation and that changes over time. I've seen totally irreligious periods and others where it blossomed a bit. There was a religious upswing in the late 40s and early 50s that dissipated, virtually nil in the 60s and 70s, started up again in the 80s, peaked in the 90s, dropping again today. It goes in cycles...

    My personal belief is that there are more officers and EM of a politically 'liberal' persuasion than there are those inclined to be 'conservatives.' As many or more vote Democratic as Republican. NCOs generally reverse that, the result is pretty much political equilibrium. That with the caveat that for several reasons, it can vary a bit by type unit and where the unit's located. As pjmunson said, most just don't go on about it -- and should not; no one should even come close to trying to sway the troops one way or another. Some will err and do that and they should be called on it if it occurs.

    The issue of those wanting or not wanting to serve is colored by several things. I do not want to see a draft and think one is highly unlikely but back when we did have one, it brought in a lot of people to include to the Navy, Marines and AF -- those who were going to get drafted and did not want to go in the Army so they enlisted -- even Doctors, who would never have volunteered but once they were in, found something to like and stayed in. with the elimination of the draft, we went to pure volunteers. We're better off for it. I'd even go for fewer of them; we waste a bit of man and woman power here and there...

    I never had a problem with those that did not want to serve -- too many people in uniform now that do not really want to be there. It's not a job for everyone and I'd rather go to war with four or five motivated people than a dozen or more run of the mill sorta wantas. Nor do I have any problem with those who don't want to be combat types; that sure isn't a job for everyone. I stopped trying to get people to stay in over 50 years ago when one kid I had tried to encourage to reenlist said "Sergeant, you're okay but there are a lot of people here who aren't and the only thing I've learned in the Army is to say MF and eat with a big spoon." I have never even considered asking or encouraging anyone to join or stay after that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob's World View Post
    Ok, I just gotta ask: Why use "Massengale" as a screen name?

    A good friend and officer I respect tremendously once accused me of being Sam Damon. (A gross overstatement, but a compliment of the highest order). But if someone called me Courtney Massengale I'd be tempted to lay them out.

    Particularly curious as we discuss officership on this thread.

    (Graduate and commissioned at West Coast podunkville myself. Used to be with considerable justification called "The West Point of the West". Go Beavs!)
    I can only speak for myself and not the other guy who has just "massengale"...

    The Officers I have known who view the Corps as populated by either Sam Damons or Courtney Massengales tend to have difficulties determining the difference between reality and fiction. If you choose to emulate a fictional protagonist dreamed up by a Marine E-5 as your Army leadership role model, something has gone horribly wrong.

    And let’s not forget that Sad Sam cheated on his wife and resorts to tossing people down stairs or threatening to fight them in a warehouse if they don’t agree with him.

    In the name of full disclosure, my second boss in the Army was a Major who viewed himself as Sam Damon and had a gigantic black and white photo of The Duke in The Green Berets in his office. He was woefully incompetent (light guy in a heavy unit syndrome) and used obtuse and uneven methods to “prove” he was Sam Damon. Which, by default, made the rest of us (ie everyone) who didn’t fit his self-fulfilling criteria….

    *thunder*lightning*

    Courtney Massengales

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    Default Actually I hadn't even read the book at the time

    Quote Originally Posted by Courtney Massengale View Post
    I can only speak for myself and not the other guy who has just "massengale"...

    The Officers I have known who view the Corps as populated by either Sam Damons or Courtney Massengales tend to have difficulties determining the difference between reality and fiction. If you choose to emulate a fictional protagonist dreamed up by a Marine E-5 as your Army leadership role model, something has gone horribly wrong.

    And let’s not forget that Sad Sam cheated on his wife and resorts to tossing people down stairs or threatening to fight them in a warehouse if they don’t agree with him.

    In the name of full disclosure, my second boss in the Army was a Major who viewed himself as Sam Damon and had a gigantic black and white photo of The Duke in The Green Berets in his office. He was woefully incompetent (light guy in a heavy unit syndrome) and used obtuse and uneven methods to “prove” he was Sam Damon. Which, by default, made the rest of us (ie everyone) who didn’t fit his self-fulfilling criteria….

    *thunder*lightning*

    Courtney Massengales
    But for someone with such an aversion to taking what a Marine E-5 dreams up seriously, you did name yourself after a character he dreamed up to represent everything bad in self-serving, career oriented officers.

    Just seems odd to me, but that's just me.

    And as you noted, your self-deluded former boss was no Sam Damon, but then no one is or was.

    I've always said I've learned from everyone I ever worked for or with. Either how to do something, or how not to. Trick in life is to pick your role models wisely. As to once an eagle, I enjoyed the book and could empathize more with Damon, no more, no less.
    Robert C. Jones
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    Default Who do you love?

    Timely poll result

    WASHINGTON, Aug. 7, 2009 – U.S. military officers have “very great prestige,” and their status is climbing, according to a poll released this week.

    ...More than half of those polled gave military officers top marks, saying that the position held very great prestige. Military officers tied with teachers for 51 percent.

    I left the teacher reference in there just for Uboat509. More interesting to me is the steady upward track from 1982.

    On demographics: without digging for supporting documentation, I expect a significant portion of the "southern" skew in recruiting figures is also due to the many military brats (I use the term as a father of three myself) with southern addresses because that's where their parents are stationed/retired. The imbalance is not geographic, it is family tradition vs nonesuch - something that is the same for most professions.

    On another note, much of the current civilian view of the military is still informed by living memory of the WWII (and post-WWII) military - which was the historical exception, and not the rule it's often described as now. ("our current military is small and detached from larger population" - true but actually the norm in U.S. history). By "living memory" I mean in particular the experience of many who were not "right" for military service but who endured (in most cases honorably and many with distinction) a few years of it as very low-ranking individuals under the worst possible conditions.

    And how many bright, young (Ivy-educated or otherwise) folks with world-changing/saving ideas are going to "survive" the first five or so years when "sir yes sir" is the right response to everything? Especially when they know they are the smartest in the room (a room full of people for whom "smart" appears inversely proportional to time in service/experience) and no one will listen?

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    Default In defense of:

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyhawk View Post
    On demographics...also due to the many military brats (I use the term as a father of three myself) with southern addresses because that's where their parents are stationed/retired.
    ...all us Fathers of three of 'em, that's a good point. One that had totally slipped my small, retired in the south mind.
    And how many bright, young (Ivy-educated or otherwise) ... (a room full of people for whom "smart" appears inversely proportional to time in service/experience) and no one will listen?
    ...all us old guys who are just jaded, not stupid.

    I submit that part of that problem is that we've heard it all before from dozens of bright youngsters coming from all areas of the nation, we're just waiting for one of 'em to come up with something truly innovative or different, achievable within the system and not too self referential. Not necessarily in that order.

    Good post, Greyhawk.

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